Greetings, Superfriends, and welcome to this week’s show.
This week, we have a guest that a lot of you have requested – Mr. Derek Sivers. Like many of our guests, he has an extremely eclectic background – he started his career as a musician and circus clown, and in the process of selling his CD’s online, he somewhat accidentally founded CD Baby, the largest seller of independent music on the web, with over $100M in sales and 150,000 artists.

In 2008, he sold CD baby and began to focus on his new ventures – and that’s why we have him here on the SuperHuman Academy Podcast. My guest is an expert in lifestyle design. He himself is based in New Zealand, Singapore, and Belgium, of all places. He shares my passion for self-improvement. He’s a frequent speaker at the TED conference, with over 10 million views of his talks, and he’s published a staggering 34 books since 2011, including the #1 Bestseller Anything You Want.

In this interview, my goal was to uncover the mentality of someone who has been not only successful in the classical sense, but also in the sense that means the most to me – he is a deeply happy, joyous person who has designed the type of life he wants to live.

We discuss a lot in this episode, from lifestyle design and entrepreneurship to the things that my guest most attributes to his success and the values that guide his life and decisions. Throughout the episode, you’ll gain a unique and fascinating insight into someone leading a very un-traditional and very extraordinary life, and he offers a ton of practical tips and suggestions for making real change in our own lives.

In this episode with Derek Sivers, we discuss:

• Derek Sivers’s story of going from musician to entrepreneur, multimillionaire, and then bestselling author
• How did Derek deal with the unexpected fame and fortune from CDBaby, and why did he sell it? 
• What did it feel like for Derek to feel that his life had peaked at 38 years old, and what did he do about it?
• Why was Derek Sivers researching different ways to change his name and disappear off the grid ?
• What two epiphanies changed Derek’s life forever and caused him to “man up?”
• Derek’s journey to impact the lives of others, and how he got to speak at the TED conference 3 (!) times
• Leadership, and the story behind Derek’s most successful TED Talk
• What is the “new kind of entrepreneur” discussed in Derek’s book, and why has the book been so successful?
• What does Derek feel is the secret to his success?
• Derek’s experiences living abroad, and his thoughts on Singapore and it’s history
• Lifestyle entrepreneurship, and some of the concerns around it
• Thoughts on lifestyle design, bucket lists, and why Derek lives between 3 different countries
• The idea of doing things that make us less happy in the short term to be more happy in the long term
• Why does Derek Sivers encourage people to email him their questions, and answer them for free?
• Derek’s talk on goals, and why he feels that we should keep them to ourselves rather than share them
• Which goals should we share, and which goals should we keep to ourselves?
• What values does Derek hold himself to, and what are some of his current goals?
• Derek’s favorite fable (which is also mine, coincidentally), and what it means in each of our lives
• How does Derek Sivers structure (or not structure) his days and weeks?
• What books have most impacted Derek’s life, and why does he take notes and share them?
• What’s the most impactful $100 Derek has spent recently?
• An important homework assignment that everyone should do this week!
• What one message should you take away from this podcast?
• Thoughts on writing very action-oriented, concise books with “seeds” of action
• Using spaced repetition to review books you’ve read
• Derek’s tips on how to give a successful TED talk

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• The Entrepreneurs’ Organization (EO)
• TED, and Derek’s 3 top-rated talks on Leadership, Goals, and Weird
• My lecture on failure (download the slides here if you’re curious)
• The Digital Nomad Conference in Berlin
• The original article and blog post that spun off into Derek’s TED talk on goals
• Abraham Maslow
• Derek’s comprehensive list of book notes
• Derek’s personal email: derek@sivers.org
• A blog post on concise, action-oriented books
• My course on accelerated learning
• My beloved spaced repetition software Anki and Derek’s blog post about it
• My TEDx talk about memory and mnemonics
• Derek’s main website, Sivers.org

Books Mentioned in This Episode:

• The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction by Robert Green
• Tribes by Seth Godin
• The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell
• Anything You Want: 40 Lessons for a New Kind of Entrepreneur, Derek’s bestselling book
• How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnie (my favorite book ever)
• Delivering Happiness by Tony Hsieh of Zappos
• Aesop’s Fables
• A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle
• SuperHuman by Habit by Tynan
• Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins
• Maximum Achievement by Brian Tracy
• Moonwalking with Einstein by Joshua Foer
• The many books by my friend Dr. Anthony Metivier
• The China Study by T. Colin Campbell

Favorite Quotes from Derek Sivers:

Transcript:

Introduction: Welcome to the Becoming SuperHuman Podcast. Where we interview extraordinary people to bring you the skills and strategies to overcome the impossible. And now here's your host. Jonathan Levi.

Jonathan Levi: Before we get started, I just want to let you guys know that this episode is brought to you by my best-selling online course. The Speed Demon: Productivity Tricks To Have More Time. The course is the culmination of over a decade of my own experience and research into productivity, theory, strategies, tips, and tricks from how to prioritize and structure your life to computer hacks and tips to automate your daily work and even ways to shave time off the basic tasks we all do every day, the course is guaranteed to save you at least three hours a week or your money back. So for a 90% off coupon, check it out jle.vi/productivity. That's http://jle.vi/productivity.

Greetings, Superfriends, and welcome to this week’s show.

This week, we have a guest that a lot of you have requested – Mr. Derek Sivers. Like many of our guests, he has an extremely eclectic background – he started his career as a musician and circus clown, and in the process of selling his CD’s online, he somewhat accidentally founded CD Baby, the largest seller of independent music on the web, with over $100M in sales and 150,000 artists.

In 2008, he sold CD baby and began to focus on his new ventures – and that’s why we have him here on the SuperHuman Academy Podcast. My guest is an expert in lifestyle design. He himself is based in New Zealand, Singapore, and Belgium, of all places. He shares my passion for self-improvement. He’s a frequent speaker at the TED conference, with over 10 million views of his talks, and he’s published a staggering 34 books since 2011, including the #1 Bestseller Anything You Want.

In this interview, my goal was to uncover the mentality of someone who has been not only successful in the classical sense, but also in the sense that means the most to me – he is a deeply happy, joyous person who has designed the type of life he wants to live.

We discuss a lot in this episode, from lifestyle design and entrepreneurship to the things that my guest most attributes to his success and the values that guide his life and decisions. Throughout the episode, you’ll gain a unique and fascinating insight into someone leading a very un-traditional and very extraordinary life, and he offers a ton of practical tips and suggestions for making real change in our own lives.
And for that reason, I know you're going to get a ton of value out of Mr. Derek.

Derek, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you on today. Thank you so much for making the time.

Derek Sivers:  Yeah, thank you.

Jonathan Levi:  So Derek, I have to tell you, I first heard about you through EO, the Entrepreneurs Organization, because while I was the President of the Silicon Valley chapter, but you are a very highly regarded in the entrepreneurial community, particularly in the kind of self-starter and small business community.

Derek Sivers: Thank you. 

Jonathan Levi: Yeah, it's not too much to be said about that. Just thought I'd let you know. You know, I've wanted to meet you for quite some time. I think you did a lecture for EO at some point, and I wasn't able to make it like that. So I think a lot of people probably know about you because of your work with CDB, but.

I'd love to have you chase us through a little bit about your bio. And since I also pivoted my career after selling my first company, I'd love to hear how you've handled that and how you've kind of moved on from that success to try new things and bigger and better things. 

Derek Sivers: Sure. Okay. Big question. But so first let me just kind of set the stage for your listeners because some of the things I have to say at the beginning here, we'll set the context for the rest to help them make sense.

So I think the first thing to understand is that I was just a musician that I never. Aspired to be anything but a musician, right? Like I didn't want to be an entrepreneur. All I did is I just started this little music company as a hobby. I was just helping out a few friends. I didn't even mean to start a company.

It was just a thing that I was helping my friends do. But then friends of friends started calling saying, Hey man, my friend said you could sell my CD. I'd say sure, no problem. So it was really just a favor I was doing for people, but then the favors were taking up like five hours a day on my time. And that's when I started charging money for it.

Right. It was really just a favor I was doing for my community, but then it became huge beyond anything I had predicted or even wanted. I had 200,000 musician clients and a hundred million dollars in sales and I had 85 employees and it was all on me. Like I was the sole owner. There were no investors. It was just me.

I was the sole boss. I was the sole face of the company. It was a lot of pressure. Like there wasn't even like a nice hierarchy where people would report to other people. Now it was kind of like 85 people would vent their unhappiness to me. So it was also a lot of fame. Like national public radio did a profile on me in Esquire magazine, had me in their best and brightest issue.

And the fame was wonderful. It was a lot of praise and it was really nice, but it also came with a lot of. Pressure and expectations. You know, people see you in a magazine and they want things from you, or everybody wants to pick your brain, which is, you know, a very unappealing sounding thing. Right. At the end, when I say the end, I mean like the last year or so that I was running CD, baby, it also got really nasty where the employees wanted to take the company in a different direction and I didn't want to, so there was a lot of bad blood and eventually I just sold it and walked away and I gave all the money from the sale into a charitable trust.

Okay. So with that as like the stage that's set, right. I think there's this feeling that every listener here either already knows, or you will know someday, it's that feeling that your biggest success is already behind you, right? That you've peaked. And I think CD baby was such a success that when I sold it, I felt like my gravestone would say he made CD baby.

And that's about it. Right. Like I was 38 years old and I was really just coming to terms with that feeling like, wow, I will never do anything that's successful again. And I had to wrap my head around that. And so I think it was kind of close to the feeling that I hear. A lot of people have where you have just like no motivation, no inspiration to do anything.

Just kind of want to get through life and get it over with, I guess you could probably say I was depressed, but not. Not really depressed. You know what I mean? Like I'm avoiding using that word cause it wasn't really depressed, but just kind of just feeling like, all right, well that's done. Yeah, that's done.

Jonathan Levi: My big achievements are done. So I guess I'll just hang out now. Oh, I can relate. 

Derek Sivers: So it was also magnified by the fact that we're the last couple of years of CD baby were so bad. And there was so much like personal attacks on me that I just wanted to like, change my name and legally disappear. Just to avoid all responsibility.

I actually read a few books on how to do this, like how to get off the grid, how to disappear, how to legally change your name. And I was seriously looked into it now. Seriously pursuing it. And I think this is also we're having a lot of money can really mess with you because it can lead to absolute lethargy because there's no more extrinsic motivation anymore.

Everything has to be a hundred percent intrinsic motivation when money just isn't an issue anymore. There's nothing you want to buy anymore. There's nowhere you haven't been that you want to go. Or if there's anything on your wishlist, you just do it. You know, it's like, I've never been to Mongolia. No, there's a plane that leaves tonight, I guess I'll go, you know, you run out of bucket list stuff pretty fast.

Okay. So that's where I was at. You ask about like, how did I make this transition after selling my company? So that's where I was at about the year after I sold my company. Right. But then to epiphany's happened in just a few hours, I was sitting on a plane. And I think I was actually reading the book called the 48 laws of power, or maybe it was his other one, uh, Robert Green, art of seduction or something like that.

I was reading one of Robert Green's books. Cause I remember it was one of his historical tales about stepping up into your power and fame and stuff like that. And I realized that. I kind of decided in that moment to just man up and step up to the responsibilities of fame because the benefits are worth it, that there's so many great things about being a little bit famous that I can man up and just deal with the occasional downsides.

Right. Because I have this belief that. Being, at least somewhat famous is one of the most useful things you can do for the world, because the opposite of doing that is hiding, you know, where you just like lay low and don't do anything very public. I think it's extremely useful to others when you're out there and doing things publicly.

Right. So I just get excited, you know, I'm more useful to the world. When I'm not hiding. So this whole like, change my name and disappear thing. Like, no, I'm just going to man up. All right. I'm a little bit famous. I'm just going to step into it and own it. And in fact, that led immediately to my second epiphany, is that almost immediately after deciding this, I had a bigger vision of who I could be.

If I decided to step into this, this is back before TEDx was invented. Right. So right. Ted was just this like once a year, big, giant conference and being a Ted speaker felt like winning a Pulitzer prize or something. So I decided that I wanted to do that. I wanted to speak at Ted and I wanted to be surrounded with and accepted by this new community of intellectuals.

I wanted to be known as a writer and a speaker and a thinker kind of guy, which for me at the time, right. I was only in music at that time. Right. So this was a big. Aspirational dream of mine to do something that was beyond music. And suddenly, like this was inspiring. This was kind of like the depression Buster, right?

This is like the first thing in a year that made me kind of jump out of my seat and get excited and want to do something. And so that's when I learned that goals should only be judged by their ability to change your actions in the present. Right? Like if a goal doesn't improve your present actions, it's not a good goal.

And so here I was kind of witnessing that, just this idea of being a Ted speaker was like getting me so charged up. But I, so I started spending like four to six hours a day, just exploring thoughts and finding ways to present them in really short, succinct ways on my blog. And I'd spend like six hours a day.

Just like editing one little six paragraph post, right? Like chomping down every word to make sure it couldn't be misunderstood and trying to make every sentence piercing and powerful. And then I applied to Ted and I got accepted to speak, not just once, but at three big main stage Ted conferences in a row.

Incredible. So finally, to answer your question. I think the sweetest reward came when my Ted talks got really popular and the most common question I would get from all these new people I was meeting was like, so what did you do before Ted? And then I realized like, Wow. People don't know me from CD baby anymore.

Like I actually did it. That career pivot thing that you hear about it was so reassuring to know it can be done and it's so much more exciting. 

Jonathan Levi: Oh wow. Your journey so resonated with me because I felt the same way. And, you know, I went about it with the business school route and then the, Oh my God, what am I going to do now route.

But I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who felt this after kind of a windfall success of like, Oh, okay, well, you know, peaked at this age, you know, incredible. So I have to admit, I actually learned about your Ted talks. On how to start a movement in business school. And you should know that a lot of professors in organizational behavior actually play this in what the first lectures.

So I think that's absolutely incredible. And it was a huge pivot, speaking of pivots for me and my leadership skills. So I have to ask since you're a self-described introvert, where did you gain such spot on insights about leadership? I mean, the Ted talk is absolutely brilliant. 

Derek Sivers: Thanks. Well, I hate to break it to you, but I don't know much about leadership.

Hmm. I really only know about three minutes worth of stuff and I'm really, you know, compressed everything I know into this three minute talk called leadership lessons learned from a dancing guy, the first follower. And honestly, man, that's about all I have to say about it. I was really just echoing what I had learned from Seth Godin's book called tribes and Malcolm Gladwell's book called the tipping point.

And I read those two books. And shortly after I saw this video of a guy dancing at a music festival line and how everybody started joining in. And the first time I watched it, I just laughed. And the second time. You know, that was actually kind of a good metaphor about leadership and everything I've learned about how to make a movement.

So I just shared some of my insights on my blog. It was just one of those things, like where I said that once I decided I had this goal, I was spending six hours a day, just sitting there thinking and trying to communicate ideas in short, punchy ways. And, um, Yeah. And that's about all I have to say on that subject, but because I did that Ted talk, it makes it look like I'm an expert on something, but I, you know, I'm really not an expert on the subject, but I've been invited to dozens of big corporations to speak about leadership.

And I got a lot of book offers from publishers to develop this first follower leadership idea, but yeah. I just politely declined them all. I said no, thank you. I'm sorry. That's just not really an interest of mine. 

Jonathan Levi: Fair enough. I do want to point out though, your incredible humility, because on the one hand, you know, you don't know a lot about leadership and building a tribe.

Besides what you've read on the other hand, your bio story was, yeah, I had a couple of friends and then before I knew it, there were 200,000 artists. I just want to point out to our audience, how incredibly humble you are about all of them. 

Derek Sivers: Well, you know, we never have any perspective on ourselves, do we?

Jonathan Levi: That is so true. So changing gears then from the leadership, uh, your book, subtitles, 40 lessons for a new kind of entrepreneur. And I joke with my friends that I'm the anti startup entrepreneur in that. You know, I'm completely over traditional entrepreneurial culture. Well, traditional, you know, the culture of the last 15 years.

So I'm interested in what your take is on what this new kind of entrepreneur is and what's new about him. 

Derek Sivers: Hmm. Well, to be fair, Seth Godin chose that title. So like I just said, I don't think any of us really have much perspective on our own. Story, right. I mean, the book is called anything you want. And again, Seth Goden chose that title too.

It's just a tiny book that you can read in about an hour that has 40 little tiny stories about the lessons learned from starting building and selling my company. So it's meant to just be a short little punchy thing with, it's not telling my story. It's more just like in the arc of doing what I did here are the most important 40 things I learned that I think you should know.

Sure. So that said, so I can't see my own story without much perspective, but what I've heard from other people. That they like about it is mostly this idea that by being generous, by forgetting yourself and your own needs, by doing what's really best for your customers and like a really shockingly, generous and friendly way, you can actually succeed in business better than those who are taking this MBA analytical maximum profit approach.

Sure. So to me, it all feels like common sense, right? Be nice. Be generous, be considerate, make people really happy and they'll be happy to open up their wallets and pay you. Right. It's kind of like that old 1930s book, how to win friends and influence people. Have you read that favorite book of all time?

Jonathan Levi: Actually? 

Derek Sivers: Are you serious? Yeah. All right. Well, I think for anybody listening, who hasn't read it yet, you should kicking it old school in the 1930s. I think the title is really unfortunate because it makes it sound like it's a slimy book about how to trick people into liking you. But actually I think it should be called.

How to be considerate because I think it's the most amazing book about looking at everything from the other person's point of view. And the punchline of the book is that the way to win friends and influence people is to be sincerely interested in others and always connect with them around their own interests.

Yours. So my little book is about that approach to business. So it sounds simple, but people tell me that it's very counter-intuitive, especially if you've been immersed in shitty business practices, your whole life. And we get acclimated to the sad state of affairs at most places. Then people tell me that my.

Little book is a breath of fresh air. But to me it just seems like common sense. You know, I love that. Yeah. 

Jonathan Levi: It also reminds me a little bit of, uh, Tony Shay's book, the, the guy from Zappos, delivering happiness, and just the way that you said overwhelm your customers with. And I think that's also a metaphor for life overwhelm, anyone who you're providing value to whether it's friendship or business with just kindness and over-deliver, and you can such incredible benefits from it as do they, of course.

Derek Sivers: Yeah, I like it.

Jonathan Levi:  Yeah. So what are the other 30 plus books about? 

Derek Sivers: Oh, well, I mean, I published 33 books, about 16 countries in Asia for two years in a row, 2013 and 14. Wow. I published 16 books a year, about 16 countries in Asia. And then at the end I did one big wrap-up book called like Asia 2014. So I just did that when I moved to Singapore, because it was my way of getting to know my new neighborhood.

I love it. Where did you live in Singapore? Right in Marina Bay. Do you know what I do? 

Jonathan Levi: I live right by the inside campus. Oh, in the cheaper part of town, if you will.

Derek Sivers: Oh. But no, a nicer part of town. I lived right next to Marina Bay sands on the 51st floor out of my window. I could see Indonesia and Malaysia and Singapore, of course.

But yeah, it was a nice idea. Like when I was apartment hunting, You know, you look at a bunch of places then suddenly they show me this apartment on the 51st floor. I'm like, Oh my God, I'll take it. But of course, my first night living there, I realized that Singapore does all of its big, noisy celebratory activities right there in the Marina, outside my window.

So every night at seven, nine and 11 was a big, giant laser light and sound show that I had listened to two, three times a night. For two years. So the three times three, almost 2000 times I had to listen to that piece of music. Oh my God. So yeah, I wish I could've lived by NCN. 

Jonathan Levi: Anyway, this Derek, we talked about the new kind of entrepreneur. Would you consider yourself to be a lifestyle entrepreneur? 

Derek Sivers: Maybe, but I think that a focus on lifestyle can be dangerous. I think it's kind of a recipe for misery lifestyle is such a Mimi, Mimi, me focus. Right? It's like focusing on making all of your dreams come true, making your immediate gratification the most important thing, but it seems to assume that.

That if you just make yourself very happy by being in the perfect climate with the perfect laptop and the perfect phone and the perfect camera and the perfect schedule, surrounded by perfect people doing perfect hobbies. If you make your life exactly what you want, that then you'll be happy. But I think that ultimately it's not very useful to others and the way to be rewarded in this world and have a wonderful rewarding life is to be very useful to others.

Right? So. You can go ahead and pursue a lifestyle that you love, but you have to understand that it's a shallow comfort that it doesn't pay. And the deeper rewards really come from the things that you do for others. 

Jonathan Levi: Totally. I give a lecture on failure and entrepreneurship. And one of the things that I always say is that the greatest failure, someone shouldn't accept is the failure to build a life full of things and full of work that you really love.

Um, I think the term lifestyle entrepreneur gets wrapped up with kind of, I run this company that I hate. We sell products that I don't use and I make a ton of money and that's it. And I don't have to work, but I think there's a route to take it where you have this need in your life and in your lifestyle for serving others.

And how are you going to kind of fill that role and fill that need. Hmm. 

Derek Sivers: Well, you know what? I might be confusing it with two, I just a month or so ago, went to a conference in Berlin that was called like the digital nomad conference. And it felt that everybody there was just trying to do this Tim Ferris style, lifestyle design.

Like I just want to, I just want to get my lifestyle. I want to live in Bali. I want to be in a hammock. I want to have a muse business that runs without me. And I just feel that everybody's pursuing. This dream lifestyle that ultimately, like, when I listened to them describing this, they're just talking about themselves the whole time.

It's not about how they can be valuable to others. It's just like, I want this and I want that. And I want a hammock and Bali, and I want this and I want that. And I think, yeah. Okay. The, your biggest rewards. In life come from when you're being most valuable to others, I love it. You can yet pursue the lifestyle you want.

Of course, I'm not saying be a martyr. Yeah. If you know that there's something that makes you really happy go for it, but don't overvalue it and think that this is what it's all about. 

Jonathan Levi: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I'm glad you segwayed into lifestyle design because. I know you are a major inspiration for a ton of people in that, you know, you've moved all over the world.

You've lived in three countries, as you said, you've ticked off almost everything on your bucket list. So I am interested to hear a little bit about your life philosophy and how you pick the different elements that you integrate into your life. Hmm. 

Derek Sivers: That's a big question. I think that most of the unusual things I do.

Come from some core, fundamental idea, right? Like I tend to read a lot of books and I find one little core idea in there and I extrapolate that into like how I can apply it to my life. Right. Okay. So one example is this idea that our minds only grow when they're surprised. Right? So when something is not exactly as you expected, that's when you learn new patterns or new logic or learn a new approach to things.

If you're not surprised, you're not learning. So when I heard that idea, I was 37 and I was newly free. I think I was about to sell a CD baby. And so I decided that a way to accelerate that process of constant surprise and keeping an open mind on a daily basis, or at least to try to be in an environment where surprise could happen often is to live in a new country.

Yep. I'm not saying that's the answer. That is the way that everybody must do, but that's one way. And it's a way that fit my life at that time where I wasn't tied down to anything. So I thought that maybe doing this would help me avoid some habitual approaches to life and avoid getting stuck into a rut that you often see people do.

This is kind of an age thing. People have this shared cultural agreement that. When you were a child and when you're a teen and maybe even when you're in your twenties, you're constantly learning and growing and reinventing yourself. And then people get into their thirties and they kind of just do this thing where this am, this is who I am.

You know, this is where I live. This is my favorite sports team. This is. My favorite breakfast. This is the kind of music I like. And they just, they kind of have this feeling of being done. Right. And so I wanted to avoid that. In fact, men, that's why I left Santa Monica. I was living in Santa Monica at the time and I was so happy.

I loved Santa Monica. I loved living there so much that I made myself leave because I had the feeling that if I didn't leave. I would just kind of get stuck there. It was almost a retirement mindset. Just be like, yep. This is my favorite place. This is where I am. I'm done. End of the rainbow. So yeah, I made myself move to a place that was uncomfortable.

I mean, this is not like Singapore is so uncomfortable, but it was out of my comfort zone and, uh, yeah, kind of, I want to keep forcing myself to do that for life avoiding my comfort zones. I love it. I really 

Jonathan Levi: love it. Although, yeah, you're right. Singapore is often called Disneyland with the death penalty.

Derek Sivers: Yeah. That's, you know, Singapore is a deeper place than it appears to be. Totally. In fact, we want to get a whole long rant about Singapore. I mean, in a good way, like I'm raw Singapore, man. I love Singapore with all my head. It's one of my favorite places in the world. And I think that when people visit on the surface, they just see that it's squeaky clean, but.

If they don't understand the reason why it's squeaky clean, that actually being squeaky clean was like a survival strategy for a country in the sixties that thought they wouldn't survive, that they were just going to get invaded by their many neighbors that would love to invade them. That being a corporate headquarters for Asia was their survival strategy.

Exactly. Actually, they have a lot in common with Israel, say Israeli.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah. And arriving there on a flight from Israel. I heard the whole story from every taxi driver, every uncle, as they say. Yeah. So really, really interesting there as well. 

Derek Sivers: So you mentioned like how do I choose what I'm doing? So I guess I started to say that I really liked to read books about.

Psychology or even philosophy, which I think is just kind of like psychology turned into directives or suggestions. Right. But then when an idea resonates with me, I really try to apply it to my life. Like the example I gave of trying to, you know, living around the world. It's just one little idea, but I think that I've always been extremely longterm future-focused right.

Like doing things that don't necessarily make me happy short term. But that I think are ultimately better for me. Long-term right. Like the Singapore example I could have just stayed in Santa Monica and just been happy right now. And in the present moment, the ultimate comfort, but I felt that I would have paid a longer term price by being more of a narrow person, like having more narrow experiences in life.

So yeah. Pushing yourself out of your comfort zone is short-term discomfort. But with the reward, the longer-term reward of having a greater range of things that you understand and can accept and work with or, or feel comfortable in, you know, multiple places that feel like home. Right? Yeah. So yeah, when I sold CD baby, I felt like the obvious trajectory I could have taken, which is move to Silicon Valley and be a tech investor or a serial entrepreneur.

And I think that those things might have led to more. Immediate happiness, more money or more praise or more fame. But I wanted that deeper challenge of succeeding at something that was more difficult with those longer term rewards. 

Jonathan Levi: I see. I like that approach a lot. Another thing I really loved on your website, Derek is you said that your main act of public service is answering emails from strangers.

So people should feel free to email you. I love that for a lot of reasons. One, because you put it out there as a public declaration, but also, you know, I think of the idea that I'd rather contribute to something unique to me in terms of public service, as opposed to saying, cleaning up trash on the side of the road that you know, anyone can do.

And you want to give you a unique value. So I'm dying to know what kind of emails you're getting. And what's the unique way in which you're able to address those emails. 

Derek Sivers: No. I'm like a free shrink life coacher business mentor. I think I spend like 10 to 15 hours a week just answering people's questions.

I enjoy it for the most part. And whenever I'm not in the mood for it, I don't do it. I don't answer my email every single day. I do it every two or three days, but I don't get deeply involved. Like I don't. Become somebodies official mentor and get deeply involved with their company. I'm not on any board of directors or anything.

I generally just answer questions. That's what I think a lot of people have career questions or lifestyle questions, or sometimes even like out of the blue, I'll just get. An email from somebody in India saying that he's very frustrated with his sister right now. And what should he do about it? I'm like, um, all right.

And I try to just conjure up what wisdom I've learned from life and books and such. So maybe I'm just kind of in training to be a wise old man. 

Jonathan Levi: I love that. Okay. Well, I'll segue into that. I'm sure you don't want to give too much about people's kind of private, uh, problems on a podcast. So we'll segue from that.

But let me talk about another one of your Ted talks, which is where you said something that actually really surprised me, which is that we should keep our goals to ourselves. And generally I actually try and share my goals a lot, whether it's with friends or on social media, or even on the podcast, I'll talk about projects that I'm hoping to release by December.

I'm doing this and I use it as accountability and I use it to apply a little bit of social pressure. Why is it that you feel this doesn't work out of curiosity? 

Derek Sivers: Okay. So again, this is, I'm not an expert in this. In fact, just to give a little context. So when Ted is about to have a conference and they do a little bit of open call for speakers for the short talks for all of those 20 minute talks as they go find those speakers.

But for those little three minute talks, it's kind of open call. So I was putting in my bed to do. Another three minute talk and I pitched three ideas at them. One was a talk that I really wanted to do that I felt what was going to be great. The second one was like an idea that was kind of the backup plan.

I felt it would be good. And then I thought, well, I really want to do a talk no matter what. So let me give them a third option, which is this Newsweek article I just read today. That says that announcing your plans makes them less likely to happen. Like I'd literally just read it like an hour before. Oh, that's kind of interesting.

So I just wrote that down as like a third option. I could talk about that and then that's the one they chose. So, so suddenly I'm giving a Ted talk about something I'd learned about that day. So I contacted the guy that did all of this original research and. I guess you have to understand that the Ted is just a bit of entertainment, right?

Those aren't really university courses. It's just like a little bit of intellectual snacking. So I was actually given two and a half minutes to do my talk. So I had to leave out some nuance, but if you go to my original webpage for it, which is sivers.org/zipit. Z I P I T that's where you'll find the original article that has links to the original research.

So the deal is this, that when you announce some identity goal and the guy that did the original research asked me to emphasize the fact that it's for identity goals, that's something where just by announcing it, you're now seen as more noble or daring or brave or athletic or admirable. That when people give you social praise for this announcement, well, then you've already felt.

A lot of the pleasure. So now you're less motivated to do the hard work necessary to make the goal happen. So if you say like I'm going to run a marathon or I'm going to do an iron man competition, or I'm going to bike around the world. Well, now your friends say, wow, Jonathan man, you are, I could never do that.

Well, and iron Ironman, you must be really dedicated. Oh man, you are hardworking, man. I really admire you. So now you've already felt this social praise, right? So. You're less motivated to do the hard work, but here's the point that was lost in the two and a half minute. Ted talk is that this doesn't apply to other goals.

So if you're talking about, say, like starting a new company, well, then it helps to tell as many people as possible to expand your resources and your input and get lots of feedback and lots of new ideas. Then, yeah, of course you should tell those kinds of goals to as many people as possible. So this discouragement or premature satisfaction only comes from announcing identity goals.

Love it. 

Jonathan Levi: Okay. So it's about that kind of, that hit of a dopamine or serotonin that kind of says I've already made it half the way 

Derek Sivers: there. Yeah, you're already envisioning achieving it. Kind of like, I mean, I was a musician for 20 years, or you could say I still am, but in music and athletics, I think we talk about how you can close your eyes and picture a perfect performance of something.

And it's actually kind of like you were practicing it, right? Like just imagining it sends a little tiny signals into your neurons and whatnot. That has almost the same effect as actually physically practicing something. So I think it's the same thing. Like when you vividly imagine yourself achieving this goal or doing the iron man or marathon or speaking fluent Mandarin or whatever it may be, you're already getting the pleasure in advance.

Of actually achieving it. And therefore it's like, I've already felt the pleasure. So, eh, you're not quite as motivated to do the hard work necessary. Right. Right. 

Jonathan Levi: So I suppose I should avoid the temptation to ask you what some of your goals are. 

Derek Sivers: Oh, do I have any.

Jonathan Levi: Maybe I can ask what are the values that are driving your goals?

You talked about service to others. I mean, I guess, unless you want to share a couple of broader goals, what are the values that help you drive? What goals you will set for yourself? 

Derek Sivers: Actually, you just named it. I do often find that when I get a little paralyzed over wondering what to do next, if I just ask myself this question of, well, what's most useful to other people, or how can I be of the most value to others that usually answers it?

Of course, there are things that I'm interested in doing. That aren't directly useful to others. You know, I do want to learn Mandarin. I think it's fascinating. I love the Chinese writing system and I just think the language is so interesting. So I want to learn that, but ultimately, is it the most valuable use of my time?

No, but it's a bit of a compromise it's and this is something I want to do. Whereas for example, spending the 10 or 15 hours a week answering every single email that comes in, that's being very directly useful to the world and. Spending some time building some of the new web app ideas. I have some in the new company ideas that I think might be useful to others.

Yeah. Sometimes it's not always the most fun thing I could be doing to spend my time on that, but I do it because it's ultimately most useful to others. So yeah, it's a good way of unparalyzed yourself by using that standard. 

Jonathan Levi: Definitely I'm a big advocate of, as in your company, you have core values that help employees make decisions.

I, in my personal life have 10 core values that I put above all. And so when I'm faced with a difficult decision in my personal or professional life, it's very easy to look on those values and say, well, my top value is to be authentic and trustworthy and genuine with people. So I'm not going to take the easy route.

And I'm going to tell this person exactly how I feel. I love 

Derek Sivers: it. Those little rules of thumb, man, those little heuristics, whether it's list of 10 values, or even as simple, those little morals, whether it's 10 commandments or whatever people may have that the guide them Aesop's fables. They make these little things that are so easy to remember.

I don't know for me, the one I got when I was a teenager, I don't know if I heard it from someone or if I just came up with it myself, but it was whatever scares you go do it. Oh yeah. I've been living with that almost daily since I was a teenager. That just when, in doubt, when faced with any situation, whatever scares you go do it kind of like the Santa Monica idea.

I said earlier, where staying in Santa Monica was the, the comfort choice. And I think Abraham Maslow psychologist said something about every day, we're presented a hundred times a day with a choice between safety and risk. And he said, make the growth choice a hundred times a day. Something like that. And I just, I love that even those tiny little choices you make in the day, like what would be the choice that would help me grow as a person and what would be the choice that would be me kind of staying in my safety zone.

Jonathan Levi: I love that I'm dumb just now kind of coping with this and dealing with it. I had a friend actually, Dr. Anthony mitzvah. Who's a colleague of mine. Tell me that same thing where I'd say, you know, I really want to try this, but I'm terrified of it. Uh, I won't say what, but he goes, that's the exact reason why you have to do it.

So yeah, in the process of figuring out how I'm going to do this. 

Derek Sivers: And it can be tiny things, man. There would just be sometimes I'd see some like gorgeous girl and I'd be like, Oh my God, she's so out of my league, I'm terrified. I'm like, whatever scares you to go do it. Here I go. 

Jonathan Levi: I love that. So I realized Derek, I keep asking about everything I found on your site almost verbatim, but I think that's a Testament to how well you write and how concisely you make points.

So I really, really want to ask you, you described yourself as antidromic and that really resonates with me. So tell me a bit about that. 

Derek Sivers: Yeah, sure. I think I say that on the homepage of my site, because it's a link to my favorite fable. Should I tell him, I guess it only takes a minute. Yeah, sure. Right.

It's pretty widely known. So I think it's been in some movies and some other people have quoted it in their books, but it, it goes like this it's that a man and his son have. A horse and they only have one horse and one day they're only horse runs away and all of their neighbors combined say, Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss.

You must be so upset. And the man just shrugged and said, well, we'll see. And about a week later, That only horse came back and it had 20 other horses in tow and the man and his son gathered the, all of these horses into the corral. And suddenly they had 21 horses and they were like the richest people in their village.

And all the neighbors came by and said, Oh my God, she must be so happy. What? Wonderful news, you must be ecstatic. And the man just shrugged. And he said, well, we'll see. And then because of these 21 wild horses, one day, uh, one of the wild horses kicked his son in the legs breaking both of his legs. And suddenly the old man's only son was laid up in bed.

Old man had to do every, I think himself and the neighbors came by and said, Oh, you must be so upset. I'm so sorry. And then just said, we'll see. And then shortly after the country went to war and every able-bodied young man was sent off to war and they were all killed in a horrible battle, but the man's son was spared because his legs were broken and the neighbors came by and said, Oh, you must be so thankful.

And then just said, we'll see. Yup. And that's it. I love that story. Love it. Something, I think it's a core thing about myself is that I've always had a very. Long-term focus. Right? Like even when I was, I don't like 17 years old, some of my friends are starting to get tackled and like, man, you got to get a tattoo.

And I said, you know, I think when I'm 90, I won't want that tattoo. And they just looked at me weird, like when you're 90 dude, who cares about when you're 90, man, I want this tattoo now. I think it's cool. The union man. And I'm like, no, I'm thinking when I'm all done. Good. So I want to, for some reason, I've just, I've always been in service of my future self.

Right. So I think that if you. Looked back at whatever you were worried about five years ago, right? Like if you were to go read your old diaries from five years ago, talking about everything that was upsetting you, then, you know, bet you'd find out that those problems have probably just sorted themselves out by now and everything is fine.

Right. So things smooth themselves out with time. So I feel like why get so upset about these short-term things? If your eyes are on the horizon, right? It's like those little rocks in the road don't bother you. So I think it's also just that I really love tranquility and silence. I find my own thoughts, very entertaining.

I don't need to spice up my life with drama, for entertainment. 

Jonathan Levi: You know, I love that. And I have to admit that's one of my favorite stories of all time. Although I hadn't heard that version. But I got the version that I know from Eckhart Tolle Lacework, which is also one of the most impactful books I've ever read.

Cool. Yeah. So how then, you know, if you're focused on the horizon and on the long-term, how are you structuring your days? 

Derek Sivers: No, I don't love it. I really don't. I just, I tend to just dive into one thing at a time. And get really, really into one thing at a time until I'm feeling done with it. And then I'll just dive into the next thing.

I guess these cycles go sometimes for weeks. Sometimes it's a short term thing. Something I'm programming will just take a few weeks to finish and then I'll go work on my book for a while. Or sometimes it takes months or even a couple of years to just dive into one thing until I feel that it's done.

And then I'll just go do the next thing. So my friend Tynan wrote this book. I was about to say it's called Becoming Superhuman, but no, that's something else. What is it called? I think it's called Superhuman By Habit. Is that sound right? tynan.com T Y N A N.com is his site in the, I think it might be Superhuman By Habit anyway.

Yeah, it's a great book about how to design a life by making habits and living by your habits, like deciding what your values are. What's important to you and making habits for yourself to make sure that you do everything that's important to you. And I read the book and it's a wonderful argument in favor of this, but I just.

Yeah, I dunno. I just, I tend to just dive into one thing at a time. So no, I have no routine. Sometimes I bounce out of bed at three 30 in the morning, excited to dive back into whatever I was doing at midnight. When I fell asleep and other mornings, I sleep until seven hanging out with my kids all day.

Jonathan Levi: Awesome. And then you just work on whatever you feel inspired to work on in that day. 

Derek Sivers: Yeah. It's nice. Not having a boss.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah, no, no kidding. No kidding. So, let me ask this then why don't we transition into a bit of a lightning round because I have a ton of short form questions that I would love to ask you.

Right? So the first one is when you think of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind. 

Derek Sivers: It's not a person. I think discipline, for some reason, the word discipline comes to mind first. Like I think I really admire discipline. I really admire those that don't lose control. So yeah, I don't have a single person that personifies that.

I think it's a whole collection of people. I really admire are the ones that live with discipline. I love it. 

Jonathan Levi: That's an awesome approach. We talked about a couple books, Dale. Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people, but what are the books have most impacted your life? 

Derek Sivers: Well, Instead of needing one or two.

I actually, I started this thing on my site about eight years ago, where I started taking detailed notes on every book I've read while reading it, I would underline my favorite sentences or circle my favorite paragraphs. Then I would type them all into a text file so that I could. Review it and really internalize it.

Like I wanted to remember really internalized ingest everything I had learned and make it a part of myself. I do the same thing. So I started sharing those notes a few years ago and putting them out for free on my site. So if you go to sivers.org/book, As I V E R s.org/b O O K. You'll see, over 220 books, I've read with the detailed notes on each one, and I've sorted them with my top recommendations at the top.

So that was kind of the answer to your question, like which books had the biggest impact on me? I think the reason, I don't think it would be fair to just name one or two is because I've noticed that it's a bit of a timing thing, right? Like one of the biggest influences on me was Tony Robbins' book in the giant within.

And I think it's just because I read it at the right time when I was 19 years old. And that's what I needed to hear then. But when I reread it again, now I kind of go like, eh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old, same old. And say, for example, I asked Tim Ferris that question once. And he said that I think it was the, the book that he said was that kind of life changer for him.

I think it was maximum achievement by Brian Tracy or something like that. But so I went, Oh, wow. So Tim said that, like, that was the biggest impact on him. I have to go read this book and I read it and it was just like, nah, Same old, same old self-help crap, you know, so, but on the other hand I realized, yeah, if I would've read that book first, before awaken the giant within then yeah.

That probably would have had a big impact on me. So instead of me telling your listeners, just one or two books that impacted me long ago, I think, um, you had to go to sivers.org/book and look at list of the ones that I think are the best of the best with my. Favorite ones up top and see which one resonates with you right now.

Jonathan Levi: Alot of really, really good ones on here. I'm actually checking them out, but I have to admit a lot of them. I've actually never heard of school. I'm going to dig through this myself actually. Awesome. All right. So next lightning round question. What's the most impactful hundred dollars you've spent recently.

Derek Sivers: Scotty books. Yeah. I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but yeah, I think books are such a great value. One of my best friends is just a real extrovert. She just loves to be around lots of people all the time. And she spends like $15,000 to go to these master class seminars. And she'll. Fly off to Vegas and there'll be a thousand other attendees in this big room.

And they're all standing on chairs and pumping their fists in the air and yelling of affirmations and the person on stage they're sharing even less than they put into their $15 book. But now they're charging $15,000 to attend and hear them say it on stage. Right. So I'm just, I'm so thankful that. I learn best from books.

Cause it's just gone, you know, 15 bucks to buy a book. And you think of like how much that 15 little books did for you. So yeah, I think, uh, my book 

Jonathan Levi: club people often ask me what the most important turning point in my life was. And I have to say it was when I learned how to hack my memory and speed read, uh, which is the reason that I teach it now is it was probably the most impactful thing I've ever learned.

Awesome. Yeah. All right. So what's one practical piece of homework. We'd love to assign homework on the show. So what's one practical piece of homework that you'd like our audience to do this week. Whether it's read a book, practice, a thought exercise or something like that. 

Derek Sivers: Yeah. Sorry. I'm just going to be boring. I'd say, yeah. Read a book from my list. And then email me afterwards.  

Jonathan Levi: Oh, that is a really, really good one. I love it. All right. And can we put your email on the show notes? 

Derek Sivers: Yeah. It's Tyler right now. Derek D E R E K@sivers.org. 

Jonathan Levi: Awesome. So read one book once you've done that email, Derek, tell him what you thought.

Yeah. Derek, if people take away one message from this podcast, what would you like to do to be email me and introduce yourself? 

Derek Sivers:Because I think that. Anyone that listens to your show is my kind of person. That's why I was like to be on it. Yeah. I don't need the fame and I'm not doing this to sell books or anything.

Obviously I wasn't here pitching anything. So I just, uh, I love what you're doing and people that are a fan of your show are my kind of people. So yeah, if you made it all the way to the end of this, send me an email. 

Jonathan Levi: Thank you. So let me ask then, because we didn't get a chance to talk too, too much about what you're working on.

What's next for you? Dinner? No, no. I mean career-wise and dinner. 

Derek Sivers: Uh, yeah, I'm going to have dinner after this rock on. Let's see. Well, actually I just posted. Something on my site that I think is it's a vague idea now, but no, just I had a kid a few years ago and I was thinking about that. I'm always a bit of a pessimist in that stoic kind of way of stoicism kind of way of preparing for the worst.

And so I often think of the fact that it's likely that I'll die before he's very old. So I think I really need to try to share everything I've learned. And so I look at all these 220. Books that I've read in the last few years and all of my detailed notes on them. And I've noticed that a lot of books talk around a subject or they share a lot of findings, but very few of the, or almost never do, they just.

Tell you what to do and say do this. But yet I've noticed that when I tell a lot of my friends about these amazing books, I've read, a lot of my friends are not book readers. Even if they're smart people like I'll say, Oh my God, he got to read this book. And I was like, nah, dude, come on. You know me, I'm never going to read that book.

Why don't you just tell me what it says I should do, right. And I noticed that that was my friend's most common question. It's like, so what should I do? Tell me what to do. What is the book say I should do because we're not going to really sit around and talk around the issues? It's just telling me how this will change my life.

And that made me think about something like the 10 commandments. I guess I brought that up earlier because it wasn't like they were stone tablets discussing. Issues or like, let's talk around these issues. It's like, no, we're just going to tell you what to do, do these 10 things, or don't do these six things and do these four things.

And it can be a really succinct way to communicate a philosophy kind of like I've made me think of the metaphor of seeds, you know, when you have little dandelion seeds that blow in the wind, it's because they have their little seed inside of them. Right. So I think that the philosophy. If something can be a little seed inside a simple directive.

Like if you just tell somebody, let's say whatever scares you go do it. Right. That's just a tiny commandment. But inside that. Is a bigger philosophy, but you just do the action. You were living the philosophy. So yeah, I'm thinking about ways to turn this into something. I don't know if it's, I'm not saying that this will be a product or even a book, but just something I'm interested in.

So if you go to my site and you look at my blog, one of the newest blog posts right now is that sivers.org/. The number two letter D letter O so it's to-do, but spelled out as two D O that's where you'll see the new post-war, I'm kind of talking around this issue and anybody that's interested in doing this, or if you also have some ideas on this, like how to turn all of this wisdom into specific directives, telling people what to do.

Yeah. That's something I'm thinking of doing now.

Jonathan Levi: I really, really love that. And it's something I actually encourage my students to do. I'm in the process of reworking my course on accelerated learning. And like you said, you know, even if you have all these mnemonic techniques, I saw that you've also read, I've been perusing your book list.

So I saw, you've also read a Moonwalking with Einstein and you know, a lot about, you know, how you can store memories. Long-term. Yeah, but even with that said, even if you have these incredible techniques, you need to review, you need space repetition. So I encourage my students to summarize books and then go over them, you know, once a month go over the last few books you've read.

And, uh, yeah, man, it would be really, really interesting. 

Derek Sivers: I'm so glad you brought this up. I just realized that yeah, your listeners are the people that know this, the best of my very first idea with like these, you know, 220 book nodes and each one is, you know, you'll see pages and pages of notes on that book.

My very first thought was like, how do I put this into space repetition? Right? Like how can I memorize what I've learned from these books with spaced repetition? And honestly, I haven't. Figured out the answer yet. I actually played with some things. I did the, I think you call it the closure technique where you will admit certain words, but even then I was like, well, it's not like this sentence.

I want to memorize. I'm not memorizing poetry. I want to memorize this concept, this idea so that it just becomes. As internalized as, you know, one of those ones I said earlier, whatever scares you go do it. Or your list of, uh, the 10 principles was a 10 or 20 that you said you had, I have 10 core values, two core values.

I would love for a lot of the things I've learned in these books to be that tip of my tongue tip of my mind kind of thing. So they just are called up. Really frequently, just whenever a life situation hits, but I'm not sure how to use space repetition for something like that. I'm such a fan of honky for so many other things that I've used it, even for learning like programming languages.

If you go to a sivers.org/s R S you'll see my story about how to use space repetition, to learn a programming language. And it's how I kind of crash course myself in JavaScript really fast. And that's really awesome. Memorized it, instead of having to look up everything I was doing and yeah, so I'm a huge fan of space repetition, but how to do that for these book notes, I'm not sure yet.

Jonathan Levi: I'll tell you what I would do.

And then I'm going to send you a copy of my book as well. What I would do is I would have the title of the book. I'd probably sketch it out because it's hard to find images for it, but I'm all about visual memory. I saw that you also read my buddy Anthony's book. So you need his whole visualization thing.

Yeah. That he and I both teach. And what I would do is I'd have a book and then I'd have a sketch for each core concept. And I would force myself to remember what that sketch essentially is invoking. So one of your books was the China Study, which studies, not just China, but also other countries. So I might picture a Chinese emperor and sketch out a Chinese emperor.

He might have 10 different arms. If there were 10 different countries, each arm would be holding either a flag. If the flag is readily recognizable, Or some other, a guy named Stan, Stan Lee packing a suitcase, for example. And then I would remember that one of the core concepts is that he compared the diets of 10 different countries against China.

Right. And I mean, I don't know, that's probably not a core concept. I haven't read the book to be honest with you, but one of the examples, one of the visualizations I'm giving in my upcoming TEDx Talk, is so cool.

Derek Sivers: As soon as you started describing this, I picked her an emperor. I just noticed that like my eyes closed, as soon as you started saying this, I was like, vividly picturing everything you were saying.

Jonathan Levi: I love it. Yeah,exactly. So Derek, I know we're running long. I really do appreciate your time. I know it's your emo, but you did not have to accept our interview. So I appreciate that you did. And I've certainly learned a lot. 

Derek Sivers: Thanks, man. Yeah. I love what you're doing.

Jonathan Levi: Awesome. So I'd love to pick your brain at some point. Maybe I'll, be one of the people to send you an email to pick your brain about, uh, giving a Ted talk, Ted talk tips, and transitioning the TEDx to the Ted Ted, which is going to be my next goal. 

Derek Sivers: Hopefully. Cool. I can just tell you in a sentence or two, my main advice for anybody listening, that's going to be giving a Ted talk is just focus on what's surprising.

Write out everything you want to say, and then scribble out everything that you think will not be a surprise and just focused on what's surprising. And if they give you 18 minutes to do the talk practice doing a 12 minute talk, like always err, on the side of too short, the ones I can tell you from attending many Ted conferences that talks at people.

Often walk away going like, damn, that was powerful. Are often the ones that were shorter than they needed to be, because they just told you the surprising stuff. Like people go to Ted to learn something. Right. And so that idea you're not learning unless you're surprised. So just focus on what's surprising and just chop out the rest.

Jonathan Levi: I love it. Awesome. So I'm going to go hack out about 20% of my Ted Talk. Derek. I really appreciate it again. Thank you so much. And we will link up in the show notes, but if anyone wants to check out what you're working on, it sounds like sivers.org is the place to go.

Derek Sivers: Yup.

Jonathan Levi: Awesome. Thanks again, my friend.

Derek Sivers: It's been a pleasure. Thank you. See you.

Jonathan Levi: All right. Superfriends. That's it. For this week's episode, we hope you really, really enjoyed it and learn a ton of applicable stuff that can help you go out there and overcome the impossible.

If so, please do us a favor and leave us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, or however you found this podcast. In addition to that, we are. Always looking for great guest posts on the blog or awesome guests right here on the podcast. So if you know somebody or you are somebody, or you have thought of somebody who would be a great fit for the show or for our blog, please reach out to us either on Twitter or by email or email is info@becomingasuperhuman.com. Thanks so much. 

Closing: Thanks for tuning in to the Becoming Superhuman Podcast. For more great skills and strategies, or for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode, visit www.becomingasuperhuman.com/podcast. We'll see you next time.