The Healing Power of Psychedelics: Ayahuasca, LSD, Psilocybin & More w/ Dr. Dan Engle
Today, we are going to talk a bit about “drugs” – or rather, medicines. But not the drugs or medicines you’re thinking of.
In fact, we're going to be talking about ancient, psychedelic medicines, used for hundreds or even thousands of years by indigineous societies for spiritual exploration. You may have heard of some of these substances – things like ayahuasca, psilocybin, or MDMA.
What you may not have heard is how powerful they can be for personal growth and development.
On that note, we are joined today by Dr. Dan Engle, a board certified expert in Psychiatry and Neurology with a clinical practice in holistic medicine, orthomolecular psychiatry and integrative spirituality.
He is also Medical Director of Crossroads Ibogaine Recovery Center in Rosarito, Mexico and the Rejuvenation and Performance Institute in Sedona, Arizona.
In this episode, my objective was to learn more about the power of tribal medicines such as Ayahuasca and Ibogaine, learn how they affect the body, and see why it is that they're experiencing such a renaissance. But, as always happens, I got so much more out of this conversation than I could have possibly imagined.
It's a bit of a longer and denser episode. We go deep into the world of psychedelics, spiritual exploration, trauma recovery, and more. We geek out on neuroscience, and share incredible stories. It’s a bit of an unstructured conversation, but easily one of the most fascinating and engaging we’ve ever had.
By the way, you’ll notice that there are no ads in this episode. Instead, I wanted to connect with you guys a bit, share something that I feel is important, albeit controversial for people to learn about, and throughout the episode, I even open up a bit about things I've never shared publicly. I hope that this episode touches you, inspires you, and challenges your thinking – and if it does, I’d really appreciate if you dropped me a tweet or a review letting me know.
Just a quick disclaimer: As always, the SuperHuman Academy Podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing in this week's episode should be considered medical advice or any condonement for illegal substances of any kind. Be safe out there, people.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How did Dr. Dan Engle come to become one of the world's foremost experts on psychedelics?
- How Dr. Engle's life completely transformed after experiencing ayahuasca for the first time
- What exactly is ayahuasca? Where does it come from? How's it made? What is it used for?
- Do we actually know how ayahuasca works in the brain? And if not, is that a big deal?
- What is Dr. Dan Engle's biggest concern with the growing popularity of ayahuasca?
- What are the dangers and risks of something like ayahuasca?
- What do you need to look for in a shaman or guide? What causes things to get out of control?
- How does ayahuasca compare to LSD, psilocybin, or other psychedelic medicines?
- What is the safest way to start your spiritual exploration?
- Dr. Dan Engle's experience doing 10 hits of LSD (1000 mcg!!!)
- How is LSD more dangerous than other psychedelic substances?
- Who should absolutely NOT experiment with psychedelics under any circumstances?
- The idea that life is actually a “game,” and how to live with that understanding
- How do psychedelics heal you at a psychological level?
- What is the “pyramid” of psychedelics, and which medicines fall where?
- What negative outcomes have come out of the popularity of these medicines?
- If these medicines were all legal, how would they best be used and administered?
- A discussion of the perils of the war on drugs and why it should (and likely will) fall apart
- What are Iboga and Ibogaine, and why are they “Level 3” psychedelics?
- What does the data say about psychedelic therapies? How effective are they, and what are they used for?
- Which different ailments are each of the types of psychedelics effective at healing?
- Should everyone who is psychologically healthy experiment with psychedelics? Why or why not?
- Where should you get started, if you've decided to experiment with psychedelics? (Tons of practical tips!)
- Should you be concerned about long term effects? Does science know enough about it?
- How do psychedelic drugs change the bran and the neuronal patterns of the brain?
- Which supplements to take before and after a psychedelic experience to minimize the risks and side effects
- How can you get in touch with Dr. Dan Engle?
- What is the biggest takeaway from this episode, and one of the most important life lessons according to Dr. Engle?
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Our previous episode on floatation tanks
- Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl
- Rick Doblin of MAPS
- Drugs and the Meaning of Life, an essay by Sam Harris
- The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide by Jim Fadiman
- IMHU (coaching organization)
- Being True To You (coaching organization)
- Temple of the Way of Light Ayahuasca Center in Peru
- Crossroads Ibogaine Recovery Center
- Onnit Labs, especially their “New Mood” product
- Full Spectrum Medicine
Favorite Quotes from Dr. Dan Engle:
Introduction: Welcome to the Becoming SuperHuman Podcast. Where we interview extraordinary people to bring you the skills and strategies to overcome the impossible. And now here's your host, Jonathan Levi.
Jonathan Levi: Greetings, SuperFriends and welcome to today's show. You guys today, we are going to talk about drugs or rather medicines, but not the drugs and medicines that you're probably thinking of. In fact, we're going to be talking about ancient psychedelic medicines used for hundreds or even thousands of years by indigenous societies for spiritual exploration.
Now you may have heard of some of these substances things like ayahuasca, psilocybin, or MDMA. What you may not have heard is just how powerful these things can be for personal growth, psychological development, and so so much more. Now on that note, we are joined today by Dr. Dan Engle.
He's a board-certified expert in Psychiatry and Neurology with a clinical practice in holistic medicine, orthomolecular psychiatry, and integrative spirituality. A very, very qualified expert who has some very, very interesting opinions about these medicines.
Now, on top of all this, he's the medical consultant to theTemple of the Way of Light Ayahuasca Center in Peru. And of Onnit Labs in Austin, Texas.
He's also the Medical Director of Crossroads Ibogaine Recovery Center in Rosarito, Mexico, and the Rejuvenation and Performance Institute in Sedona, Arizona. With so many credentials, we were just absolutely tickled that he had an hour to spend with us. Now, throughout this episode, you guys, my objective was to learn more about the power of tribal medicines, such as Ayahuasca and Ibogaine.
And to learn how they affect the body. I wanted to see why it is that they're experiencing such a Renaissance in the last five years. But, you know, as always happens, I got so much more out of this conversation that I could have possibly imagined. We went really deep into the world of psychedelics, spiritual exploration, trauma recovery, and much, much more. We, on one hand, geek out on the neuroscience and on the other hand share incredible stories.
It's a little bit of an unstructured conversation, but it's easily one of the most fascinating and engaging that we've ever had on the show. Now, by the way, you guys will notice that there are no ads in this episode instead, I really wanted to connect with you guys a bit, share something that I personally feel is important, albeit of controversial for people to learn about. And throughout the episode, I even opened up about some things that I've never talked about publicly. I really hope that this episode touches your lives, inspires you, and maybe challenges your thinking.
And if it does, I would really appreciate it. If you guys drop me a quick tweet or a review, letting me know. Now, just a quick disclaimer, guys, as always the Becoming SuperHuman Podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing in this week's episode should be considered medical advice or any condonement for illegal substances of any kind.
Basically, be safe out there, people and without any further ado, I'm very excited to present to you, Dr. Dan Engle.
Dr. Dan, welcome to the show, my friend. I'm so glad that we finally get a chance to speak. You know, I heard you speak on Tim's show and I just absolutely love what you had to set. I'm so excited to share your wisdom with our audience. So welcome.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah, thanks, Jonathan. It's going to be on with you.
Jonathan Levi: Absolutely, absolutely. So like I said, I was completely blown away by what you had to say on Tim's show. It was a deciding factor for me and kind of my own journey, my own self-experimentation, but I really wondered along the way, you didn't give too much biographical details in that interview. So I wanted to know about yourself and how it is that you originally became interested in the power of these tribal medicines.
I imagine it's not something that came up in med school.
Dr. Dan Engle: You are quite accurate about that? Yep. My background is in Psychiatry, then I got into more integrative approach after my training. Because I just wasn't satisfied with really how we're practicing psychiatry through the standard care. And about three, four years into my clinical experience with that, I was introduced to Ayahuasca.
And experienced personally, what I would say the equivalent of 10 years of good psychotherapy would have gotten too. Yeah. And a lot of people will make that same kind of equation when, uh, the ceremonies held in a really good way and you come fully prepared and there's a lot of grace and a lot of other factors that go into play the ability to see the deep pre-verbal, emotional, and energetic experiences that make us who we are and how we see life come to the surface.
And it's really hard to get to that kind of material using standard psychotherapeutic means and approaches. And that doesn't mean that what you would have gained in personal development over 10 years happens in one weekend because it's still our opportunity do the work. But that material, that would be so challenging to get to just using talk means is much more available in that arena because all of that subconscious material just comes right onto the screen.
Jonathan Levi: Wow. So you had really a Terence McKenna moment where you go, wait a minute, wait a minute. There might be a better way to get to this stuff.
Dr. Dan Engle: Totally. It was me taking the red pill. Wow. Waking up. And deciding to really commit my life and my time, energy resources, intellectual curiosity, et cetera, into the investigation and the exploration.
So after that, um, fairly short order, I closed up my clinic. And, um, actually I lived in an Ashram for about two years before I moved down to the jungle and the jungle for a little over a year. Just to continue to unpack everything that I had experienced in that one ceremony, my dropped in and out of a couple of other arenas to experience Ayahuasca before moving down to the jungle and the strong call was just greater and greater over time.
And there's no better way. In my opinion than going straight to the source when you're really desiring to, you know, sit at the foot of the master, which with the plant medicines is sitting right where they come from and in the arena that they're cultivated. And these are medicines that have been held in tradition for centuries, if not longer.
And there is a very clear technology. In interfacing with the medicines in a very clear lineage of mastery and knowing how to facilitate that kind of ceremonial experience. So I was really curious to see, wow, first of all, I was kind of pissed off at the entire field of psychiatry for never mentioning anything relevant towards these kinds of medicines, because the charge of psychiatry in its inception is to be a spokesperson and a facilitator of soul level psychic healing.
So our role is psychiatrist is to understand what it means to have a soulful life and how to help people get really right with their minds to hearts and their experiences with purpose and passion coming into their most full self.
And I don't know of a better modality for that cause in our day and age for the Western mind than the psychedelic medicines when held in a good way to help us get right with ourselves.
Jonathan Levi: Wow. It's a really good jumping-off point right there, because I'm sure there's someone in the audience who hasn't heard about Ayahuasca, or maybe they've heard of it.
They don't know exactly what it is. So can you touch a little bit on what exactly is this stuff and what is it used for originally? I mean, we've talked about. Spiritual awakening a little bit and knowledge of self, but what is it traditionally used for? In what context?
Dr. Dan Engle: Great question. Ayahuasca is the combination of two different plants. And it's really the only visionary plant medicine that is a combination of two separate plants into one mixture. One is a vine and one is a leaf. And the way it works is that the vine itself has an enzyme inhibitor that blocks the degradation of the DMT in the leaf that promotes the visionary experience.
Now, the vine is called Ayahuasca. The leaf is called chacruna. And there's a reason that the mixture is called the name of the vine and not the leaf because many people believe that the vine is actually doing the deeper healing work while the leaf offers the visionary experience. Now we tend to, because of the way we live in our day and age.
You know, our minds work so fast when these like 32nd informational bits of data, before we move on to the next thing. It's so fast and we're looking for the next biggest, greatest, more grand thing. Like I was just watching like this preview for Tarzan the other day. And like the new Tarzan movie is even just like, so off the chart, intense.
And everything's just so intense and so intense. So we tend to get kind of drawn in the Western mind to the visionary experience, but it's quite likely that the actual healing for the body and the neurochemistry is coming from the vine. The vine has an MAOI executive MAOB inhibitor. So what happens is it slows the degradation of the neurotransmitters in the brain.
And so there's a recuperative, and rehabilitative experience that happens particularly with serotonin receptors. And that seems to be part of the potential reason why people are able to go through an Ayahuasca experience. And actually have a significant healing from treatment-resistant depression that they may have been experiencing for years and even decades.
Jonathan Levi: Wow.
Dr. Dan Engle: It's part of the healing of the underlying trauma, the getting right with that, having a corrective experience and some type of rehabilitative potential experience with the serotonin receptors, we still don't know necessarily what is happening neurochemically with Ayahuasca, but you could make the same argument that we don't fully understand how in fact, the antidepressants work.
Right. Even though we have so much, you know, 60 years plus fairly intensive scientific research, looking at how antidepressants work and we still not totally sure how that happens. So looking at it more from a traditional standpoint, that's the nature of how Ayahuasca comes into its efficacy, combining both of those plans.
It's been traditionally used by native cultures in the Amazon river basin that spans between Brazil, Peru, and Ecuador for generations and hundreds of years. There's not really an oral written tradition. Or a history of exactly when it was found exactly where it was found, but fairly quickly, you know, in the timeline of things that started to become more and more widely appreciated and utilized through a lot of the tribes in those areas.
And it has been used for everything from healing, physical elements, to elements of the heart, of the mind, and of the spirit. And it's described as a visionary plant medicine that has its own spiritual essence that from many perspectives and personal experiences, people have direct contact with the essence and the spirit of the medicine in the ceremony.
Wow. And so this isn't something that the facilitator or the code in debt or the code vendetta is an intermediary for. They're actually ideally creating the space that the medicine itself is the one doing the direct healing. Now when necessary, if there's a potential block or a choke or some kind of energetic challenge for the medicine to drop in more directly with, then the facilitator can open up that blockage and allow the medicine to work more effectively, deeply, and powerfully.
Now that comes with a lot of tradition, a lot of training. And part of my concern in the plant medicines is that they have a lot of people. Pouring medicine without a whole lot of experience, you know, that somebody will have, a really deeply powerful healing experience of their own down in the jungle.
And they get quote-unquote, called to start carrying this medicine. And so they come back to the stage or they go and, you know, Ayahuasca is being used worldwide. They'll go anywhere, wherever they're from. And oftentimes out of a good nature and an altruistic contention to be of service start pouring the medicine.
But that's like getting surgery done from fourth-year medical students. Right. You know, it's somebody that kind of has been studying. They kind of know what they're doing, but they don't really have a whole lot of experience. And so it's important to have a broad-based discussion around how to, you know, effectively vet, so to speak some of the facilitators that might not be doing the best level of work and at worse because of negligence might be doing something really harmful to people.
Jonathan Levi: Right. I mean, I've seen firsthand people who've been completely transformed for the better with this drug. And I imagine there are, or medicine rather. I imagine that there's the great potential to be transformed for the worst, for some very serious psychological trauma.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah, there is. And the medicines are really particularly Ayahuasca are really powerful. And usually, if you just get out of the way, if you hold a safe space and you get out of the way, the medicine's going to do the work. Wow. And the vast majority of the time, that's what happens. But it's the rare instance where people are working out of either Supreme negligence or just stupidity.
Or even potentially out of their own greed or their own use of misdirected power and things go wrong because they're not holding it in a really integrous field. Usually, that's happening down in the jungle. This is where you hear of facilitators using black magic or just taking people's money and something egregious happening.
Very seldom. I actually never even heard of something that egregious happening here in the States. Oh wow. And so, you know, the jungle, I kind of equate the jungle to like go into the ghetto. You don't know who's got your back. Right. And who's really trying to help you or who is just going to take your wallet and leave you for that and not really give a shit.
And so it's important to just recognize that as a potential. So I'm a supreme believer of anybody that's going into the medicine arena, makes sure they know who they're sitting with, or that person's been vetted by other people and make sure that, you know, that person's experience level, how long they've been working with the medicines, where they come from, where their tradition and their lineage comes from, get a sense of their integrity, their energy.
And do they know how to work as a spiritual EMT? Like, if the house starts burning down, do they know the exit strategies? If they need to pull the ripcord, do they know where it's located? How do they arrest the situation? If things get really out of hand and I've seen things in the ceremony, get really out of hand because either the person going through the journey wasn't truthful. Like they have been maybe doing like LSD the night before.
Jonathan Levi: Oh God.
Dr. Dan Engle: Well that happened. That was a crazy shit storm that went down because that person that's a huge energetic block right there and conflict. So that was because the person going into ceremony wasn't truthful. Same thing could be said if somebody is on psychiatric medications and they didn't disclose that that's recipe for a really bad scenario.
The other thing could happen is when the energy in the room just gets so big that the facilitator can't control it and then things really get out of hand. So there's a lot of just different things to take into consideration, into context. And a lot of people that are just curious and they're desiring personal growth, and they've heard a lot about it and they want to have an experience.
They might go in blind or naive. Without doing that level of due diligence. So I just really wanted to lay that foundation.
Jonathan Levi: I appreciate that caveat, you know, for anyone in the audience, because it's very important to note this stuff. It's kind of the whole set and setting. And I've had friends who've told me, you know, I lost to change their lives.
And I've had friends who told me they wouldn't wish it on their worst enemies and everything in between. You mentioned, by the way, LSD. So I'm wondering if you could kind of compare Ayahuasca to both LSD and psilocybin or magic mushrooms.
Dr. Dan Engle: Sure. You know, we could talk a lot about the different energetic profiles and healing experiences, but for simplicity's sake and the way my brain works is I'm pretty visual.
I like maps. So I tend to think of things in relationship with others and how you would look at them in like a map. And so if we were to look at a pyramid and kind of an escalating profile of the medicine space, so if somebody, for example, asking me and I get this question a lot like never done any medicine, I'm kind of curious, where do you think I should start?
First of all, I want to know, like, okay, what's your level of personal development work? Do you have any experience with meditation? Have you ever gone into a float tank? And if you haven't start there first, because flotation therapy is just such a great way for that subconscious material to come onto the screen of people can't hold their stuff together in a float tank.
They're really not going to be able to hold their stuff together. And in ceremony, I mean, that's a generalization, but floating is always a good starting point. And then from there, you go into like the level one medicine experiences. And then there's a level two and a level three. So the level one experiences that would be something like psilocybin, but tends to be very gentle.
Um, it's an easy entry point, low-risk threshold. If you do a Terence McKenna heroic dose, if you'd get a little cocky, you know, if you just took a fistful like five gram dose, that might get a little hairy, right. Especially if you've never done anything before. So newbies, ideally are with a trained facilitator or at minimum with a safe sitter, that's going to be able to help them, you know, contain the experience should it really get out of hand?
Jonathan Levi: Right.
Dr. Dan Engle: That doesn't happen very often because ideally, people wouldn't go to that dose or experience like right away. LSD is kind of a curious one. It is because mostly in my experience because it's synthetic and if you take too much, it will push you through a glass ceiling that you might not fully come back from, or one thing to go through.
Yes. Right. Just a little bit of a self-disclosure I did a 10 hit journey ones. Oh, wow. Cause I was kind of curious about what that threshold was.
Jonathan Levi: What can you quantify that for me in micrograms?
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah. That's a thousand micrograms.
Jonathan Levi: Oh wow. And for our listener at home, uh, a good size dose is a hundred and fifty micrograms.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah. And you know, ultimately you can only help support people as far as you've gone. And so it was really clear to me. People were asking me about like, you know, bad trips and bad journeys and hellacious experiences. And I'm like, well, you know, I've never done like a huge LSD journey. And even though, you know, through several hundred Ayahuasca experiences working with San Pedro, Ibogaine, any Boga and psilocybin, and like going down the rabbit hole pretty far.
There was still something that happened through that LSD journey that was completely out of my control. And there was also somebody that had an experience at a similar dose range that went from essentially very sane to very psychotic, fairly immediately. And it was a really clear reflection for me, like with the synthetics, you don't have the safe, normal, safeguards in there. So to speak, like if you take too much Aja, Payoti, San Pedro, Iboga, psilocybin. Do you take too much of those? You typically either puke it out, poop it out, sweat it out. And reconstitute on the other side, usually, there's like a toxic threshold that your body can't handle.
So it gets it out and it's usually no harm, no foul. That being said. There are contraindications to the psychedelic medicines. And let's just make a little disclaimer there before going further people with significant psychiatric history of psychosis, mania, depersonalization, or dissociation, psychedelics are a no-go just to be on the safe side.
Jonathan Levi: Stay away, people who are very balanced and very sane. You know, I'll give a disclosure as well. I've had experiences where I come away and ask myself if I'm ever going to be kind of right again for better or worse. And nowhere near the heroic doses, you're talking about.
Dr. Dan Engle: The reason I'm bringing that up is definitely not that I'm wearing that as any kind of badge of honor.
You know, in fact, you could make a fair argument that was fairly stupid to do, but for me, I've done a fair bit of training to get to that level of willingness to go that far. If somebody did that without a life raft or something to hold on to, or an ability to send to your mind, then particularly with something like LSD, if you do too much, it can really fracture the psyche.
Oh yeah. And it can really create more trauma. And that's actually the opposite of what we're looking to do. We're actually looking through these experiences, heal trauma, to get to know more of ourselves, to get to know more of the world, the universe, our relationship to it, how we choose to play this human game because essentially that's what this whole thing is.
Jonathan Levi: That's what I realized as well on psychedelic experiences that we're really playing a game designed for our enjoyment.
Dr. Dan Engle: Right. And it is our opportunity to show up and through our freewill choice, actually choose how we want to play the game.
There's this great quote by Victor Frankl who wrote Man's Search For Meaning. And he says in that book, and by the way, I mean, that's such a Seminole book and such an amazing thing for him to write. And nine days after getting out of the concentration camp and he says the last of the great human freedoms is our ability to choose our own attitude in any given circumstance.
Yep. So it's that same kind of thing that you're talking about playing the game and, you know, some people are born into, for whatever reason, you can get spiritual philosophical about that for whatever reason, born into certain experiences and, you know, born into war zones versus born into a rich family with kind of like all your needs taken care of pretty freely and easily.
So even in different experiences, we have the opportunity in our free will, how to choose that engagement. Now, if we have the experiences coming in between like birth and five, where 85% of our personality is actually made up. If we have those experiences be the flavor of trauma and rejection and abandonment and more of the horror side of the spectrum, then it's at times really difficult to just put on a good face and choose to be happy until that stuff is understood and looked at and investigated and held and reverence and deep willingness to be with that pain to be able to heal it and then resolve it, release it, and then more freely now be able to choose how we desire to play the game.
So that's what the medicines do is they help us get into that pre-verbal material and get really close to it. And there's the, oftentimes in the psychedelic medicine experience, there's a witness.
Ego observation platform. So to speak that you get to in some of these experiences where you get to see the experience, you get to see yourself, everybody involved in whatever that experience was. To heal it, to get right with it, to forgive everybody involved, including yourself. And to integrate it into a new self, as opposed to ignoring it, rejecting it, acting like it's not there or trying to get over it, and not appreciating it for how it has significantly made one engaged life in a particular arena.
Usually, and this is kind of a summary statement for many of the seminal teachers. In our current day and age, they would say that myself included, although I didn't put myself in that same kind of role as a Seminole teacher, that oftentimes our greatest challenges are our greatest teachers. Right. So if we're able to recognize challenges that have been present throughout our life, including that significant pre-verbal arena between birth and say four or five. Now we can get more closely connected to that experience as a teacher, understand how it shaped our life. And then fully forgive that experience. If there is any held resentment or anger or shame or guilt. Fully get right with it and then be more liberated to actually choose how we want to play the game.
Jonathan Levi: Absolutely. We're so on the same page, Dr. Dan, it, it blows my mind. I wanted to, uh, touchback on the pyramid though, that you mentioned just to finish that off. I began in Ayahuasca. Where do they fall on this pyramid?
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah, I put Aya in a level two and Iboga, or I began in a level three.
Jonathan Levi: Oh, wow. Okay.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah. So like level one is like, MDMA, psilocybin, low dose LSD. LSD goes in all three.
Jonathan Levi: Yes, it does.
Dr. Dan Engle: Totally, right. Because at an entry-level dose, You're going to have a soft experience. And there's thousands of case reports of people having great psychedelic-assisted psychotherapeutic response, using LSD in the right set and the setting in the right dose and with the right facilitation.
There were thousands of case studies in the fifties, sixties, and early seventies before it went to schedule one of great healing with LSD. So I put it in all three. Just really have to know where you're at. Like if you're dropping, you know, 300 mics in at burning man. You could really blow your lid off because it's already such a charged environment.
But if you're using a hundred micrograms with a facilitator that knows trauma work, that can hold the space really well, that can help the personal investigation of anything behind the curtain, so to speak. That is a very different experience and that can be a supremely healing environment.
Jonathan Levi: Absolutely.
Dr. Dan Engle: You have level one, MDMA is also synthetic, but it tends to be so heart-opening. It's usually a softer experience if you took a lot because it's an amphetamine derivative, it can get a little jittery, but it's usually on the softer arena. Ayahuasca, San Pedro cactus, Payoti, I put in level two, and the reason I put them there is because each of those comes from such a long lineage of deep ceremonial work that they deserve their due respect through that ceremonial work and through that tradition and they do require excellence in the facilitation. Yeah.
Now each of them is very different and San Pedro and Payoti are both Mescalin based in their primary alkaloids. So there's a similarity there payoti comes from North American. San Pedro or Wachuma comes from a South American cactus, but they're really similar in their alkaloid profile. The feeling state of them can kind of be similar too. I know that there are many people facilitating San Pedros ceremonies without a whole lot of experience in San Pedro generally is, is on the milder side.
It tends to be heart-opening. It's a little bit like a combination of Marijuana, MDMA, and mushrooms together. And a bit of a softer, gentler arena Ayahuasca can be a little on the stronger side, a little harsher, particularly kind of like the tough love. And chi is described Ayahuasca is described as a feminine spirit medicine.
Can play all three of those energetic profiles between like maiden, mother, and crone. And so there can be kind of a seductive experience with Ayahuasca because in many ways it is a really blissful state. You get super grand visions, very visionary experience, particularly if there's a fair bit of the leaf material in there.
And for some people there's such a desire to connect to spirit. I think we all have that. There's such a desire to connect to the grandeur of life and the universe and the medicines can help be a doorway into that experience. And some people get stuck in the doorway and they get stuck going back to the medicine because they're not finding that at experience in any other aspect of their life.
Whereas traditionally, these medicines, one could indebt described it as the medicines are like the corkscrew that unlocked the cork from your bottle or your crown back to source. And once you take the cork out of the bottle, you don't need to keep coming back. Right. You know, to the screwdriver, whatever that thing is that pops out.
And so why keep coming back? And so there's, that just speaks to the importance of integration. Yeah. And so many people are going through these experiences would not having the full integration or not even really appreciating what the integration process is, why it's important, what it includes, how to do it well. How to know that you've integrated before you go back into ceremony. And if we, as Westerners typically do, if we identify something from nature that we want, we tend to use it up until it's gone. And unfortunately that's happening with many of the medicines they're not being used in sustainable ways.
So Iboga, 95% of the Boga that's come from the Gabon people in West Africa is gone because we just started using it up without thinking about sustainability and replanting. A lot of the old Ayahuasca vine is being used up. A lot of the big San Pedro cactus is being used up. Payoti is threatened and its availability because it's being used up.
So if we're not thinking about the sustainability piece, then we're not doing our due diligence. If we're not offering reciprocity to the tribes and the traditions and the cultures where the medicines are coming from, we're not paying it back or paying it forward. So there's a lot of different things to think about.
And first and foremost, if we're not integrating our own experience fully then we're going to have the desire to keep coming back to the medicine and therefore contribute to the unsustainability of it.
Jonathan Levi: Interesting. So I actually did want to ask you, you know, imagine a future where things like LSD or psilocybin or Ayahuasca are illegal and they're controlled like alcohol or tobacco in that kind of scenario, what would be kind of the safe and recommended frequency and dosage for using these substances?
Are some of them something, you know, that you would want to do periodically and some are like the corkscrew or are they all kind of like my experience with LSD? Like yeah. You know, I get it. It's not getting any better. It's getting a lot worse every time kind of situation.
Dr. Dan Engle: Great question. So let's assume that in the future, Everything will be legal because I do believe we're going to be moving in that direction. I can't say when, but it just makes sense that we would, and you could argue it from a bunch of different platforms.
You could argue it from the legal platform and take the case of Portugal. When 15 years they decriminalized everything because their war on drugs wasn't working, and 1% of their population was addicted to heroin. Right. And it's close to a 1% population addiction to opiates in our society and country right now as well.
The war on drugs does not work. It hasn't worked. It's been putting a lot of people in federal prison. Federal prison is a corporate system that significantly costs a massive amount of money to the taxpayers. So if the war on drugs is not working, it's costing money. And it's not potentially offering the available treatments for many of the areas that psychiatry is fairly weak at.
Right. Then I think you're going to just find out eventually that it makes sense to do something like decriminalization. I don't know that it's. And this is where some people would disagree with me, but I don't know that it makes sense to decriminalize everything fully across the board. I think there is some due diligence there.
For example, Iboga is one of those things that people do die from. And so what's Iboga? Iboga is a plant. Ibogaine as the primary alkaloid and that's the only one I would put consistently in like level three.
Jonathan Levi: Wow.
Dr. Dan Engle: Because Iboga, Ibogaine are so strong and there's a potential danger there. The biggest danger is if somebody has a heart condition because it does affect the heart rate, typically causes what's called bradycardia or lowered heart rate.
And that can get so low that you get an arrhythmia. And if you have a heart condition or even if you don't have a heart condition, but particularly if you do and you're predisposed to it, then that can cause a heart attack and you can die. But you wouldn't know that looking from the outside because it just looks like somebody's sleeping, but the heart rate is getting lower and lower and lower.
So there is a risk there it's such a harrowing experience. There's no addiction profile. And yet it's in schedule one in the United States. The United States is only like one of seven countries in the world where Ibogaine is illegal. So I think we're going to just finally realize that Ibogaine is very effective for things like heroin addiction and opiate addiction.
Why not use it? In the right settings. So coming back to your question, when these are legal, what's the right frequency in the setting to do that. I envision Satori centers being opened, Satori, being the word for sudden awakening, and essentially a center for awakening where people come to specifically have awakening experiences.
And so they might show up with a history of treatment-resistant, depression, anxiety, frustration, known or unknown trauma, but that just general dis ease with life. There is a, you know, just a dislike, something is not right. And I know I can, should and would love to feel better. And so they come into a center where there's a menu of services, one of which is the psychedelic medicines.
And there's a lot of ways that people heal. And a lot of ways that people wake up and psychedelic medicines are only one of those ways. Sure. You can do that through vision quests or fasting or experiences with meditation, orgasm, drumming, chanting, floatation. There's a lot of ways that people reach God.
Jonathan Levi: I had a friend, she said to me, I asked you, you know, have you tried LSD?
Have you done this? She said, no, but don't worry. There are many ways to roll down that Hill.
Dr. Dan Engle: Right. That's a really good description. Totally. Or roll up the Hill, you know? Yeah. Whichever direction we go. So if someone is able to come into a center where there's trained facilitators, there's a safe environment.
And they're offered the menu of services and the people that are on the other side, doing the facilitation work, have skill in being able to assess where that person's at and their own level of personal development and what that person might be best served in order to experience like level one, level two, level three at what dose.
In what kind of context with what kind of music, with what kind of supported methodology to allow the greatest healing to happen? Then we're getting really freakin sophisticated because the psychedelic medicines are like any other instrument. I can go and pick up a drum or a flute because I'm drawn to it and I can start fluxing around on it and give it enough time.
I'll learn how to play it. And if I learn just through my own process, it'll probably be the most authentic way. I know how to play it, but depending on how much I am committed to investing time and energy in using that instrument and my own musical constitution, it might take me a while to reach a mastery level using that instrument.
Now, if I have somebody that's going to teach me how to do that and hopefully teach me what my voice is, not what their voice is, and I'm not trying to just copy them. But if they're facilitating my understanding of how to use that instrument in my own life. For my own benefit and potentially for benefit of others, like how to make music for others.
So, if I'm learning from a master's, then I'm going to pick up that instrument exceptionally quicker and likely much better in a relatively efficient timeframe. Then it just left to my own devices. So when we're coming into using any new instrument and I like, I look at the psychedelic medicines as another instrument and another technology.
When we come into the arena of somebody that knows how to do it well, and they facilitate that growth for us, then we're really starting to see the biggest grandest benefit. And when we offer that broad-spectrum to people and they get to make their own choice to engage in, usually at this point in where I'm at in my career, particularly if I'm talking to other psychiatrists or the medical establishment in general. I'm just giving them data and I'm not trying to sell anything. I just want to give you the data because the data is so freaking good. It speaks for itself. So that you have the data and that you can make your best-informed choice.
Jonathan Levi: Right? Tell me about the data a little bit.
Dr. Dan Engle: The data is amazing. I mean, we could spend a long time just talking about the different avenues and arenas that data is coming back on to the forefront. There's a whole psychedelic research renaissance happening right now. There was a lot of research in the fifties and sixties, and then everything went in to schedule one and the early seventies.
So the research kind of got put on shutdown, but then you had people. Like MAPS of Rick Doblin that we're still holding the torch and the eighties and nineties. Rick, Strassman doing his DMT research in the late nineties. And now all of a sudden there's just more and more talk about it because it is so good.
Yeah. Ibogaine is about 60 to 70% effective for helping people get off of heroin.
Jonathan Levi: Wow.
Dr. Dan Engle: And the standard of care is like 10 to 15%. Those are huge numbers and that's not in a vacuum. That's not just giving somebody Ibogaine and saying, you know, have a good sober life. That's doing a whole lot of support and recovery coaching and sober living training on the other side.
And without that, there's a high relapse rate. But what Ibogaine does, is it arrests and reboots the neurochemistry, the addictive neurochemistry, and it resets it kind of back to its baseline. Ayahuasca is great for treatment-resistant depression. So psilocybin is great for smoking cessation as well. I'd say 80% effective for helping people stop smoking.
Jonathan Levi: Geez.
Dr. Dan Engle: That's like a, we're a three-month period with multiple sessions of psilocybin in multiple sessions of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. So it's, again, it's not in a vacuum. It's with the right preparation experience integration. MDMA is supremely effective for chronic severe PTSD at like 83% effective.
Jonathan Levi: Wow.
Dr. Dan Engle: These are just great numbers, but again, it's having the excellent facilitation and we in the West, we try and get super reductionistic and we want to make sure out of safety. Understood, particularly in the realms of psychedelic medicines, out of safety, it's super important to make sure that you do your due diligence and doing because you don't want to recreate trauma or cause trauma, when there wasn't any trauma that's actually going against the medical credo of first do no harm.
And I do think that there is a way to expedite the research. And put more funding into the research and MAPS is helping MDMA get essentially legalized by train practitioners. It's in phase three trials right now. They have an organization that is doing the same thing for psilocybin phase three trial level.
But most of these are privately funded because the government and the pharmaceutical industry doesn't really have a huge, or at least they don't recognize a huge investment. In supporting this kind of research, but when you're looking at just the social consequences of severe chronic PTSD addiction, treatment-resistant depression, and anxiety when you look at the consequences on humanity as a whole, everybody in my opinion should be motivated to support this kind of research. Because the medicines are so freaking good. Right.
And we, right now you can make the argument that we are in a state of crisis globally. Like when are we going to wake up? And support the medicines that work really well.
Jonathan Levi: Let me ask you this. I really, really love one of the most influential things in my decision to kind of go down the rabbit hole. As you said, I really loved that. Was this article by Sam Harris, Drugs In The Meaning Of Life. And there were a couple really important things that I took away from that one was, uh, you know, once the gates of hell have been opened, there's no shutting them. But another statement that I really loved was that he mentioned that he has two daughters. And if they never experiment with psychedelics, he'll actually feel as if they've missed out on a critical rite of passage.
So I wanted to ask you from a medical perspective, I mean, would you agree, is this something just about everyone without kind of a history of psychosis should consider experiencing?
Dr. Dan Engle: Absolutely.
Jonathan Levi: Wow. It's a ringing endorsement.
Dr. Dan Engle: Absolutely. We are so, absent in our recognition of the importance of rites of passage ceremonies for our youth today in our culture. It's a huge missing piece and most adolescents are going to experiment with psychedelics anyway. So ignoring that fact is ludicrous.
If most are going to explore anyway. Then let's help them do it in a good way. At minimum, it's going to be likely a safer experience than them just exploring on their own. Right. And at best it's going to help facilitate a really transformational experience where they get more clear on who they are, what they're here to do, and what are the next steps to take?
Jonathan Levi: All right. I got a question for you then. We have another audience member. Let's say, hypothetical audience member. 21 year old has listened to this episode, said, Hey, you know what? Dr. Dan's right. I'm going to give this stuff a try. Where does that person start? What words of wisdom would you want to share? What cautions, caveats, disclaimers would you want to give them?
Dr. Dan Engle: Great question. We're like the rubber meets the road, right?
Jonathan Levi: Right. Practical tips to overcome the impossible.
Dr. Dan Engle: Totally. I like that. Is that one of the taglines for the podcast?
Jonathan Levi: It is.
Dr. Dan Engle: Love that. All right. Yeah. The usual rules no longer apply.
Well, first of all, they ideally would be having this kind of conversation in an open framework with the people closest to them. So that there's going to be support before, during, and after the process. My concern is that when people start investigating, exploring on their own when others around them don't really know.
And then potential dangerous things happen, like particularly in the middle of the experience because they haven't prepared well, and maybe they didn't clean out well enough, or they were taking other things onboard that were clashing or they took too much. They didn't have a sitter, that's getting one or two more of the experience when, when things go wrong, you know, and all of a sudden the wheels come off.
And then also on the other side, during integration because, you know, if you go through an awakening experience and you come back, it's kind of what happens for a lot of people. And they go through some, like Ibogaine trying to treat addictions is that they have an awakening experience. Their neurochemistry gets rebooted.
And if they go back into their old environment, they're going to have a really hard time. Because the environment, seeing them as they used to be, and they're around all of their old triggers. So they're going to go back into that relapsed lifestyle, right. Or there's going to be trauma or potentially a huge interpersonal challenge because there's no longer resonance, they're in a, just different arena than the environment that they just left.
So then there's a conflict, ideally, there's a discussion about it. And if that's not possible, because oftentimes the youth of today are in households or social arenas where these medicines aren't appreciated and they're even stigmatized and judged and ridiculed and seen as the devil. So, if that's not possible, then do due diligence.
Make sure if you're going to explore that there's absolutely no history of mania or psychosis. Again, these are just no go's. When all the checks and balances and contraindications have been assessed and it's a safe entry point, then make sure there's a sitter or somebody around that can be supporting the experience.
Ideally, it's somebody who has experience in that role. It's held in a ceremonial context. I'm a huge believer of the power of prayer and ceremony to help the healing experience become that more available and potent, and the setting are one in which it's a calm environment. There's not a lot of, you know, you're not like dropping acid for the first time at school or in a mall or at burning man.
Yeah. You know, unless you're in like deep Playa and you're just taking a solo journey with a really safe friend. Great. Right. But if you're like, you know, kicking it in a rave scene when there's just so much other information and energy, and oftentimes it happens in a psychedelic state too, you get your doors blasted open.
Like that's why all this sexily titled that book, Doorways Of Perception. And so when your doors are blasted open, but you're in a really chaotic environment or a particular, really like traumatic environment, then you're potentially going to get traumatized and take all of that negative energy on. So was a really good book that I'm going to encourage people to read.
That goes deeper into all of this description by a really awesome guy in colleague, Dr. Jim Fadiman, FADIMAN. He also did a podcast with Tim and it's called the Psychedelic Explorer's Guide. Oh, yes. Yeah. Jim's one of the heavies in the field. He's been around a heck of a long time. Since the earliest days, a Jim of a guy has some great freak in stories too.
And he's books good. It's well-written, I like what he's included there and that it would be on the to-do reading list of somebody who hasn't yet had a psychedelic experience is curious and wants to take the next steps because it outlines them really well. And so once you've done that due diligence and it's time to have an experience, then the best thing you can do is drop all expectations of what's going to happen.
And as absolutely fundamentally as possible, completely trust the experience that you do have. Yeah. Yeah. If it's a safe set and setting, and everything's kind of been controlled for trust your own personal experience because the medicines work individually and specifically for where one is at, and what one is most requiring healing right now.
And it might look like nothing and trust that too. And trust that that was the first step in life, a longer journey of personal exploration. It's not going to happen in just one set. And then on the other side, do the integration work and get support. And if there's anything that's concerning or challenging, find somebody that knows how to do that spiritual integration work.
Then there are those teams and counselors available. I was just on a podcast yesterday with this spiritual emergence. A woman that was trained in a spiritual emergence network who Stanislav Grof. Her organization is IMHU. And it's integrating mental health for you, or I think is what it stands for.
But anyway, their charge is helping people integrate spiritual awakenings. And another organization is being true to you. And they have coaches that are specifically trained in supporting people going through psycho-spiritual journeys and integrating that on the other side. So that's kind of the full spectrum, three-phase preparation experience, and integration. All of them are supremely important.
Jonathan Levi: Absolutely. I can attest to every single word that you said and just how important and how thankful I've been that I did my homework and did my research. I wanted to ask one thing that you did leave out. You said, you know, you have your level ones, level twos, level threes.
Is there a particular substance that you would recommend as an entry-level? It sounds like psilocybin might be that one?
Dr. Dan Engle: It kind of depends on the indication. What somebody is in the midst of desiring to heal from it. If somebody is really locked down, emotionally and psychically have, you know, friends and colleagues and clients that are probably excellent with their minds. Very focused, very successful entrepreneurial types, their hearts guarded that you could just get the sense and they even get the sense.
It's been a lot of trauma in the past that they haven't really unlocked. Psilocybin might not be the first go. Okay. In that context, it might be something like MDMA as the first go, because MDFA is really good for that PTSD kind of arena where it dearmors the heart, and it allows more of the feeling body to come online.
And that's why historically it's really good. And has been used for couples. Yes. And a couples therapy work facilitated in that kind of arena. And that's why it's really good for PTSD with war veterans coming back from war-torn areas or relief workers. Like another friend had an amazing healing happened when she came back as a red cross, a field Red Cross, field worker.
And she was as traumatized as the people that she was trying to help because there wasn't really much support for the aid workers when they came back. Right. And it was just amazing to hear some of her stories and the healing that happened for her. So it kind of depends on where you're at. I've seen a lot of people go through their first entry point and an Ayahuasca ceremony.
After investigating the places to go. For example, one of the centers that I consult with is the Temple of the Way of Light. Down and to keep those Peru pretty close to where I lived for about a year and they're doing it really well. They have one of the largest Ayahuasca centers in the world and figures always not better, but the way they're doing it is very good.
And they've got an incredibly good track record and success rate. They've probably seen close to 6,000 people go through their center and they've only had a handful of negative outcomes. And that was usually because somebody didn't disclose that they were on medication or had a psychiatric history of psychosis or mania.
So I've seen a lot of people go through massive healing in that arena and it's because it's ceremony. So at that point, you can go into potential level two, if you're called to it, it just, it's really important to know who you're sitting with. I wouldn't do at all on your own. Right. But if someone right, but it's somebody who's doing something kind of on their own. As the first entry point, then usually something like psilocybin, or MDMA are fairly safe.
Jonathan Levi: I think that's super sage advice with friends have asked me, you know, about LSD and I've said, look, it's a lot like strapping your mind to a rocket ship and you better make sure that you have a rocket scientist handy to walk you through it. If things start going tits up.
I wanted to ask you, it sounds like you're not very concerned about long-term effects on the brain. I mean, is this something that people should be concerned about with repeated use or it's kind of not really a concern.
Dr. Dan Engle: We don't know a whole lot to be honest with you at this point. Part of that is because a lot of the research that was just coming online got shut down for 30 years. And there's a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the psychedelics when used well. And not just like any medicine has its sweet spot. Sure. If you don't use enough, you don't get a therapeutic benefit.
If you use too much, it becomes poison. That's anything from nature and anything in the pharmaceutical arena, food, you can say the same thing about water. Everything has its sweet spot. So if you're using it and the right dose and the right setting and not too frequently or too heroically, there's good evidence to suggest that there's a significant benefit in the neurochemistry and then in the brain.
And that could be for a lot of different reasons. It could be because things like cannabis, Ayahuasca, Iboga, they all stimulate BDNF, which is brain-derived, neurotrophic factor psilocybin put in there too, which means they stimulate new neuronal growth.
LSD lights up new neuronal patterns and pathways that would be lit up otherwise. And there's some great neuroimaging research coming out of the Royal College of London with both psilocybin and LSD showing extraordinarily active neural patterns and pathways that would be seen a kind of similar in some capacity to the child's brain.
Jonathan Levi: Right.
Dr. Dan Engle: Which it's very growthful, very curious, very online, open to new information, et cetera. Now that doesn't mean if you run that kind of frequency every day, that that's healthy. You can start blowing circuits and blowing fuses and running that much energy can be really hot. Right.
On the neuroreceptors. So for example, something like Ella for MDMA. Some of the old research suggested that it's really hot on the serotonin receptors. Some of the new research suggests that it's potentially not, if you protect it with antioxidants, right.
Jonathan Levi: Or five HTP as well.
Dr. Dan Engle: And that's typical if I'm like, so if somebody is going into MDMA experience, I say, well, mega dose with antioxidants going in to protect the receptors and then dose with five HTP on the other side to recoup the serotonin stores.
So if we know how to really set the neurochemistry up for success, Then we can see more and more of the benefit with less and less of the side effect or the negative risk. Right? This is where a lot of the research is going. And that's why I think it's such an exciting time in the entire arena of psychedelic medicine right now.
Jonathan Levi: Absolutely. I was just going to say, you know, if, if people want to reach out, they want to get in touch with you. I know you're doing a lot of really great work across roads. Where would you like us to send people either to get in touch, to donate, to research, stuff like that?
Dr. Dan Engle: Uh, great question. MAPS is doing great research. Is doing great research. The MAPS is primarily for MDMA right now. ICEERS is doing great research. That's an organization out of Spain, ICEERS.org. They're doing great research on both Ayahuasca and Iboga. As far as Ibogaine experiences, I think Crossroads has the best safest one that I've seen at least in North America if not the Western hemisphere,.
As far as Ayahuasca Centers go or Temple of the Way of Light again, I think is just doing amazing work. With a lot of women healers for a while. They only worked with women healers, and now there's a really good mixture of extraordinarily beautiful facilitation down there. Erowid is a great area to get just personal research from if people are trying to geek out on this kind of stuff. And that's EROWID.
Jonathan Levi: Right? Yeah.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yep. So those are just a kind of a snippet of perfect the next steps where people can get a lot of good information from.
Jonathan Levi: Perfect. And if people want to kind of reach out to you and learn more about your work, where would you like us to send them?
Dr. Dan Engle: I work with a few different organizations that typically people can contact me through.
Okay. One is, um, the two that I've mentioned Crossroads and the Temple, and others Onnitlabs.com, O N N I T. There are more of a peak performance company. They work with nootropics and supplements as well as a peak performance gear. Um, so again, when we're looking at like the whole spectrum, it's good to know, like how do we drive our body into the best ways possible and how do we draw our minds and our hearts into the best ways possible.
Jonathan Levi: I use their new mood. Well, I know they're at glaring admission, but their new mood is very, very effective after a dose of MDMA.
Dr. Dan Engle: Yeah, their new mood formula is amazing. It's one of those. If I take new mood, I wake up singing the next morning. It's just like me to be noticeable, but my personal practice that I'm just now rebranding. Now in launching the website is called Full Spectrum Medicine. And that a website will probably be out in the next few weeks.
Jonathan Levi: Awesome. So by the time people hear this, they can check out that link.
Dr. Dan Engle: Cool.
Jonathan Levi: Awesome. Great. Dr. Dan, I want to ask you one last question that we always like to close on and it is this, imagine a year from now two years from now, people have forgotten, unfortunately, so much of what we talked about today, but they remember one very, very important lesson.
They carry that with them for the rest of their lives. What would you hope for that lesson to be?
Dr. Dan Engle: Hmm, great question. You know, I'll come back to that, uh, Viktor Frankl quote. And because for me, it's just, it was really supportive for me when I've hit challenging times, because I remember his process and his experience.
So I take even more deeply his quote and his offering and message, which is the last of the great human freedoms is our ability to choose our own attitude in any given circumstance. And that's the redemptive power of our own freewill choice. And the fact that we get to choose our faith at any given point in our lives, even when it feels like everything is going quote, unquote, wrong or against us, or you can't figure out why it's happening the way it is, we have choice.
To reclaim our faith in that experience. And only we can do that. Nobody can do that for us. And hope is the expectation or the desire for it to be different in the future. But faith is the reclamation that I can choose a different relationship with it right now.
Jonathan Levi: Brilliant, Dr. Dan, that's such a wonderful, wonderful note to end on and I've enjoyed our conversation so so much.
It sounds like you and I are going to be fast, fast friends. I really want to thank you for your time and for sharing your incredible wisdom with our audience today.
Dr. Dan Engle: Awesome. Jonathan, it's been a pleasure, man.
Jonathan Levi: All right. You take care.
Dr. Dan Engle: Okay. You too. Bye-bye.
Jonathan Levi: All right SuperFriends, that's it for this week's episode. We hope you really, really enjoyed it and learn a ton of applicable stuff that can help you go out there and overcome the impossible.
If so, please do us a favor and leave us a review on iTunes or Stitcher or however you found this podcast. In addition to that, we're always looking for great guest posts on the blog or awesome guests right here on the podcast. So if you know somebody or you are somebody, or you have thought of somebody who would be a great fit for the show or for our blog, please reach out to us either on Twitter or by email or email is firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks so much.
Closing: Thanks for tuning in to the Becoming SuperHuman Podcast. For more great skills and strategies, or for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode, visit www.becomingasuperhuman.com/podcast. We'll see you next time.