The Science & Magic Of Lucid Dreaming W/ Charlie Morley

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“The ultimate aim of lucid dreaming is ludic living.”
— Charlie Morley

Greetings, SuperFriends!

You should know that I'm really excited because I enjoyed this episode so much! You're going to see, or I should say understand, why…

Well, today we are joined by Charlie Morley. Charlie is a best-selling author and teacher of lucid dreaming and shadow integration. Now, if you don't know what lucid dreaming is, it is having dreams where you know you're dreaming, but not just that – in lucid dreaming, you can also control your dreams.

As I learned, lucid dreaming is a lot more than flying, skydiving, and sleeping with supermodels – it's actually a deep spiritual practice that you can use for psychological recovery, accelerated learning and for much more.

In fact, Charlie was actually “authorized to teach” within the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism by Lama Yeshe Rinpoche in 2008, and has since developed a holistic approach to dream work called “Mindfulness of Dream & Sleep”. He has also written three books which have been translated into 13 languages!

He’s spoken at Cambridge University, The Houses of Parliament, and he is a regular expert panelist for The Guardian. In 2018 he was awarded a Churchill Fellowship grant to research “mindfulness-based PTSD treatment”. Charlie also runs workshops, lectures all over the world, and, as you'll see, he's an absolutely awesome guy.

I so enjoyed this interview and I learned so much about lucid dreaming, which I thought I knew a fair bit about. Well, I didn't. I'm also very excited because Charlie and I talked after the show, and we actually decided that we are going to do a 30-day challenge around lucid dreaming, where he will coach a select group of listeners into lucid dreaming and how to actually use it to make an impact to their life. If you want to learn more about that and get involved in the challenge, you can go to

Now, without any further ado, let me introduce you to my lucid dreaming SuperFriend, Charlie Morley.

-Jonathan Levi

Every month, we’ll invite top experts to host their own 30-day challenges, solely for the members of this group… Plus, each member will get awesome gear delivered to their home, AND discounts on various of our products! Click on the banner to find out more!

Every month, we’ll invite top experts to host their own 30-day challenges, solely for the members of this group… Plus, each member will get awesome gear delivered to their home, AND discounts on various of our products! Click on the banner to find out more!

This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. Click here to save 15% on their amazing mushrooms coffees today, for all orders placed on their website!

This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. Click here to save 15% on their amazing mushrooms coffees today, for all orders placed on their website!

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Who is Charlie Morley, and how did he get into lucid dreaming? [5:30]
  • What is lucid dreaming? [9:00]
  • Can lucid dreaming be used to train a physical skill? [10:50]
  • Can you train to consistently lucid dream? [11:50]
  • How to train lucid dreaming [13:30]
  • Is there a way to increase the chance that you'll become aware that you're dreaming? [16:15]
  • What are some other dream checks or reality checks you can do throughout the day? [18:30]
  • Diving deep into dreams and the unconscious instead of going away from them [22:20]
  • Did Charlie ever think of using lucid dreaming as a healing tool? [25:00]
  • How often does Charlie Morley do this? [30:00]
  • Not being a natural at something makes you a better teacher at it [31:45]
  • Are there things we can do nutritionally or supplementally that can help with lucid dreaming? [34:35]
  • Charlie's tips on things that you should try in your lucid dreams [38:10]
  • An amazing story from one of Charlie's lucid dreams [39:40]
  • What are some limitations of lucid dreams – and what could we do with it? [43:10]
  • Could lucid dreaming be used for something as crazy as self-healing? [46:55]
  • Embracing the shadow [48:35]
  • Where can you reach out to Charlie Morley? [50:30]
  • Charlie's final takeaway [51:35]

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Favorite Quotes from Charlie Morley:

“Lucid dreaming [at 16] seemed cool because you could gain access to this virtual reality simulation of your own psychology, in which the rules of society didn't apply.”
“The definition of a lucid dream is reflective awareness within a seemingly unconscious dream state.”
“Dreaming is linked to our evolutionary biology.”
“Whenever you see something dream-like in the day, ask yourself ‘could I be dreaming right now?'.”
“If we can link lucid dreaming to the inner child we have a much greater chance of doing it.”
“Because I'm not a natural ludic dreamer, I actually only have lucid dreams when I do the training.”
“The edge of the lucid dream is based on our preconception of how big we think the lucid dream is.”


Introduction: Welcome to the Becoming SuperHuman Podcast. Where we interview extraordinary people to bring you the skills and strategies to overcome the impossible. And now here's your host, Jonathan Levi.

Jonathan Levi: Before we get started, I want to tell you about an absolutely crazy idea that I recently had. You see, every single week on the Becoming SuperHuman podcast, we share with you some incredible idea that can change your life. Whether that's meditation or the paleo diet or Tai Chi or lucid dreaming. But the thing is, how much do you actually implement in your everyday life? 10%, 20%, and you're not alone. I mean, even I, as the host of the podcast am lucky if I implement 20 or 30% of what we talk about on this show. Why is that? Well, first off, in order to implement, we need more than a week. We need more like a month or even two months. We need a community of people supporting us, cheering us on and we need actual guidance from the experts beyond just a one-hour podcast.

So I had a crazy idea. What if we got everybody together in a members-only group, and then we committed to one another that we were going to take on a new challenge every month? One month we would all commit to lucid dreaming. Another month, we would all commit to improving our willpower. Another month, we might all try to wake up at five 30 in the morning. So I put this idea out there and we got over a hundred people committed and involved. And here's what it looks like. In addition to a regular monthly challenge, we also send out all the gear, all the books, all the whatever that you need to complete that monthly challenge in the mail and in your email. We then have an expert, one of the 200 world-renowned experts that we've had on the show, come into the private group and teach a lesson every single week for a month so that we can actually implement what we're learning. We already have started developing the first challenges we're working on a lucid dreaming challenge or working on a willpower challenge and many, many more.

So I want to invite you to come to try this out. Join us. There are over a hundred of us doing these challenges and we would love to have you participate with us. So to join this new, crazy experiment that we're calling the Becoming SuperHuman Mastermind, please visit JLE.VI/mastermind. We can't wait to see what you achieve.

Greetings Superfriends and welcome to this week's episode. You guys, I am really, really excited because I so enjoyed this episode. You're going to see, you're going to see why you're going to understand why today we are joined by Charlie Morley. He is a best-selling author and teacher of lucid dreaming and shadow integration.

Now, if you don't know what lucid dreaming is, it is having dreams where you know you're dreaming, but not just that, where you can control your dreams, and as I learned, it's a lot more than flying and skydiving and, you know, sleeping with supermodels. It's actually a deep, spiritual practice that you can use for psychological recovery, for accelerated learning, and for much, much more. In fact, Charlie was actually authorized to teach within the cog new school of Tibetan Buddhism by Lama Yesha or didn't pushy in 2008 and he has since developed a holistic approach, which he calls mindfulness of dream and sleep, he's written three books, which have been translated into 13 languages, he spoke at Cambridge, the houses of parliament, and as a regular contributor to the guardian. He also was awarded the Churchill fellowship grant for his work in mindfulness-based PTSD treatment, he runs workshops, he lectures all over the world, and as you'll see, he's an absolutely awesome guy. I so enjoyed this interview and I learned so much about lucid dreaming, which I thought I knew a fair bit about it.

I didn't. And I'm so excited because Charlie and I talked after the show and we actually decided that we're going to do a 30-day challenge around lucid dreaming, where he coaches a select group of listeners into lucid dreaming and how to actually use it to make an impact in your life. If you want to learn more about that and get involved in that challenge, you can go to JLE.VI/mastermind, and it will be around the time that this episode comes out so don't delay now without any further ado, let me introduce you to my lucid dreaming super friend, Mr. Charlie Morley,

Mr. Charlie Morley, welcome my friend. How are ya?

Charlie Morley: Thanks man I'm great. How are you doing?

Jonathan Levi: Really, really good. I'm so excited to talk today about lucid dreaming it's something that I've tried many, many times and never succeeded. So I want to give a big shout-out to our mutual friend, Stephan Spencer, who connected us.

Charlie Morley: Yes. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you for Stefan for doing that and it's great to be in contact.

Jonathan Levi: Absolutely. So Charlie, tell us a little bit about who you are and your background and the reason I ask is I really wonder how one becomes known as the lucid dreaming expert.

Charlie Morley: Yeah, it's an interesting story. I didn't set out to do this map.

I mean, I got into God I got into lucid dreaming when, I guess maybe when I was 12, like for my 11th birthday, I asked for one of these things called a Nova dreamer, which is like this computerized sleep mask that you strap to your face while you go to bed and it recognizes rapid eye movements and then it flashes red lights and gives you lucid dreams.

And when I was like 11 before my 12th birthday, I remember reading about this thing in a gadget magazine and the Sunday paper. And I was like, dad, dad, I know what I want my birthday and I read out the whole thing and then he asked how much it was and you know, it was like $300 or something. And he's was, he said, no. In your dreams, maybe.

Jonathan Levi: Pun intended.

Charlie Morley: Yeah, exactly. You know, I guess I was interested in it then, but I taught myself to do it when I was 16. As many 16-year-olds, I was interested in kind of mind expansion and getting high, and Buddhism kind of seemed cool cause of like Shaolin, monks, and stuff, but I didn't actually really get the Buddhism lucid dreaming connection till later, but lucid dreaming seemed cool because you could gain access to this virtual reality simulation of your own psychology in which the rules of society didn't apply.

So I could fly about, I could have loads of sex that I wasn't having at 16 years old, it'd be like, like really, really good at skateboarding and all this kind of stuff, so I just got into the kicks and then when I was about 18, 19, I got really into Buddhism and I took refuge, which is like, where you fall, you become a Buddhist and you know, they take a bit of your hair and you get a new name and all this kind of stuff, and then once I got into Buddhism, people kept referencing this thing called dream yoga. And when I first heard it, I literally thought it was some sort of stretching that you did before bed or something. I kind of didn't get it. And then I asked this monk. I was like, what's dream yoga? And he said, Oh, dream yoga is a series of practices within Tibetan Buddhism to have lucid dream training at their foundation.

So I was like, Oh dude, I know how to lucid dream. And I remember the monk went, Oh really? What do you do in your lucid dreams? And I was so embarrassed. I was like, ah, skateboarding. Yeah, just skateboarding. I didn't want to talk about the sex stuff. And then I asked him, I said, why do monks lucid dream? Why do Buddhist monks lucid dream?

And he said, Oh, we use it for preparation for death. We use it to explore the nature of reality, we use it to do our spiritual practice while we sleep. And it was one of those penny drop moments you know, where you realize that you've kind of learned this thing for all the wrong reasons, but at the same time you realize shit, I learned this thing, and maybe there's a possibility here. So then I kind of got obsessed with learning all the lucid dreaming stuff within Tibetan Buddhism, I started going to all these Lamas, and getting teachings and doing the practices, and then when I was 25, one of these teachers asked me to do a talk at one of his talks.

And this guy called Robin. And, uh, he said, Oh, you know, you're really enthusiastic about lucid dreaming. We need some, you know, young blood, you should give a talk. So I thought it was like a one-off talk. And I spent ages working out this talk. I, I script it every minute from like, hello, my name is Charlie, all this kind of stuff.

It was totally wooden. And then the end of this talk, without asking me it was this like karate kid moment where he turned to the crowd, I went, who thinks Charlie should run a six-week lucid dreaming course starting in two weeks time? And they will put their hands up, and that was it. And then I had a couple of weeks to try and put together this lucid dreaming course, which I'd I dread meeting anyone who says we're on that first course cause I'm sure it was a complete shambles as we say in England. But whatever, and it went from there and then I got the authorization to teach, and then I did the book and, but yeah, that's the Genesis myth and I'm sure it is just a myth, but that's how I remember it.

Jonathan Levi: That is an incredible, incredible story. And I guess I should have asked first, you know, I'm hoping people know what lucid dreaming is, but I suppose I should ask the master to define it for anyone who's scratching their head and going, isn't this just having really clear dreams?

Charlie Morley: Yeah, exactly. And we often get that is people assume because the word lucid really means clear doesn't it? It means something clear, something with light, something that's with clarity, so people often think that lucid dreaming is just having really vivid dreams, but it's not, they should really be called conscious dreaming because the definition of a lucid dream is reflective awareness within the seemingly unconscious dream state. So what does that mean? It means you're in a dream, sound asleep, but within the dream, you go, Oh wow. I'm dreaming. So you don't wake up, you're not half-asleep, you're not just having a really vivid dream, you are completely blacked out in the dream asleep, but you wake up within the dream, knowing that everything you're experiencing is a projection of your own mind.

And often when it first happened, we wake up and we get so excited. We're like, Oh, wow I'm dreaming. And then we wake up. With practice, you can stay in the dream for extended periods of time and you can start to do stuff, do your spiritual practice, explore your psychology, heal, train, loads of stuff.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah. It's like real-world inception, right? Once you realize you're dreaming the few times that I've lucid dreamed, I have flown, I threw an 18 wheeler at one point.

Charlie Morley: Wow, cool.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah. I mean the bounds of physics are obviously not there. So it's a pretty exciting thing to try out and also just to be able to even, you know, as we were talking before we hit record for learning, I mean, if you're trying to learn a physical skill, that's dangerous or hard to get to, for example, skydiving, you know, you can't spend every waking hour, but you can spend every single night practicing your skydiving.

Charlie Morley: Yeah, and you'll get better. I mean, I don't actually know that the requisites for being good at skydiving, but I was part of the last study they did at Heidelberg university where they got a load of black belt martial artists to practice martial arts in that lucid dream, and then we had to take all these tests and the, I actually didn't improve.

I was one of the ones who didn't improve weirdly, ironically, but a lot of the other lucid dreams found that they could improve their waking state performance by practicing martial arts in their dream. And Heidelberg University did another study on squats. You know, people go into the dream and doing sports, like you're doing the gym and again, they found they could increase their personal best in the waking state.

I mean, this is nuts. This is Sci-Fi stuff. This makes me want to run out in the street and be like, have you heard the news about lucid dreaming? This is insane. How can you get better at sport by training in your dream? But the science is now in, this is valid science. I mean, this is nuts.

Jonathan Levi: Incredible. Incredible. So usually, yeah, I delay this question out because we've got plenty of time and I usually milk the journey there, but everyone in the audience is now wondering how the hell do I do this? Like, how do I actually do this? Can I actually learn to do this? Clearly, it sounds like we can. What's the secret? How do we consistently lucid dream?

Charlie Morley: Yeah. So there'll be a few people listening already who got dude, I do that every night, you do get spontaneous lucid dreams. Often though, with spontaneous lucid dreamers, people who lucid dream naturally, as my wife did before I met her and still do now because they get lucid so much, they aren't actually quite as aware of the potential.

So when I meet a spontaneous lucid dreamer, I say, Oh wow, you lucid dream all the time. What do you do? And they say, well, nothing. I just know I'm dreaming. And I'm like, Oh dude, but did you know, that once you know you're dreaming, you can reprogram your brain. You can increase neuroplasticity, you can bla bla bla So first of all, there may be some spontaneous lucid dreamers is listening. The rest of us, there might be people who've had a lucid dream, you know, a couple of times in their life. And there also might be some people who think they've never lucid dreamt for them. I, I would ask this. Have they ever had a nightmare in which in the nightmare they go, I've got to wake up?

I've got to wake up because if they had, that was a lucid dream, the research has shown that over 30% of spontaneous lucid dreams begin as nightmares. Why? Because of the effect, fear has on the brain, it increases awareness. We become more aware to deal with the potential threat. So anyway, long way of answering your question.

Can we learn it? Yes, it is a learnable skill. It's a trainable skill. And that's what I spent the last 10 years doing. There are way better lucid dreamers in the world. There are more spiritual people teaching lucid, dreaming, better authors on it, and stuff like that. But as far as taking someone who's never had a lucid dream and training them to do it, that I think I have something to offer people.

And what I would say, three kinds of tips from the beginning for off the bat little takeaway for people is, um, first thing is to set your intention, to remember your dreams. Because lucid dreaming is based on knowing that you're dreaming as the dream is happening. So in order for that to happen, you need to get to know your dreams really well.

So first thing you need to start remembering your dreams. Again, people are listening, saying, dude, I don't dream everybody dreams based on an eight-hour sleep cycle, you'll be getting about five dream periods a night. The only way to stop the human brain from dreaming is to have a stroke. And even then within about three months, the brain will rewire itself.

In favor of dreaming. Why? Because dreaming is, is linked to our evolutionary biology. There's one dude in Finland, this, from this, uh, a researcher at, um, I finished university. You believe the reason we became top predators on the planet was our ability to dream, especially our ability to have nightmares, because if we could dream about lions, tigers, and bears, How to run from how to fight them, how to escape them.

The next day, we were less likely to be eaten by them. And so dreaming became an evolutionary trait passed down. So first step train yourself to remember your dreams, how harness the hypnotic state known as Hypno Gogia. As you fall asleep at night, you transition into sleep. Your eyes are closed. You're feeling very drowsy.

There's a heaviness in your body. Maybe you're having those little hallucinations before you fall asleep. That's called the hypnagogic state and it is a natural state of hypnosis. Brainwaves are deep Alfred theatre. Exactly the same as in hypnotherapy. So use that to engage a suggestion, to remember your dreams.

So as you fall asleep tonight, say over and over again, I remember my dreams. I have excellent dream recall if that can be the last thought you have before you blackout, you have a very high chance of hypnotizing yourself and remembering your dreams step two documents the dream in some way. So when you wake up in the morning, if you wake up in the middle of the night to pee or something, write down some notes.

If you can write down the whole dream, why. Not so we can interpret the dream, but so we can get to spot patterns. So we keep writing down our dreams every single morning, every single night. And let's say after a couple of weeks, we might start to see patterns emerge. We'll see. Oh, wow. I always dream I'm back at school.

Or I always dream about my dead grandma or I always dream about that house. I grew up as a kid. So step three spot patterns. And once you see the patterns, you can start to create lucidity triggers. So you say, wow, like every week I dream of being back in my grandma's house. So if between now and breakfast, I am back at grandma's house, then I must be dreaming.

It's not either, or that's a definite. So we set these triggers as we fall asleep, that will help us recognize these patterns. I mean, there are dozens of techniques and, you know, I've got all these books about it and stuff, but those are three pretty good tips for people to start tonight.

Jonathan Levi: Incredible. So once people are in there, I mean, I guess as if it were that easy, because right.

Like I've tried for years, I even did this exercise where I would look at the back of my hands in my hands or on my hands when I'm dreaming, I have fingers that spike out. So I'll have five fingers, but then at the second joint, they'll kind of split out into Ys Y shapes, but then. For some reason, since I started doing that, I only do it in my waking life and I almost never remembered to do it in my dreams.

Are there other ways to enhance our kind of that moment of realizing that we're dreaming?

Charlie Morley: Well, things like that, like you're describing the reality check there where during the day you ask yourself, am I dreaming? And you look at your hands, you check your hand, you see if you've got four fingers, the thumb you flip the hand over, you check again, four fingers and a thumb.

Now, if you do that in a dream because of a neurological kind of glitch, where the part of our brain that deals with detailed pattern recognition has very little blood flow. If you look at your hand twice in a row in a dream, it often glitches, you might get extra fingers. You might get no fingers, this kind of stuff.

But the key to this technique is not just to do it randomly during the day but to do it whenever you feel like you're in a dream. So if ever liked you feel synchronicity or if ever you're like, Wow I've seen that black cat again, that feels like I'm in the matrix or whenever, you know, you're on a train and then like a bachelor party, come on, dressed as Batman, you think that's weird, you know, could I be dreaming?

It's about linking it too weird things rather than just doing it randomly so that eventually you start to dream about it and dreams are full of weird stuff. So you habitually start to, whenever you see something weird in your dream, you check the hand, but in the dream, the hand will often change. I mean, it's not foolproof.

In the Tibetan tradition, they don't use the hand. But what they do is spend all day asking themselves, could this be a dream? Could this be a dream? Could this be a dream? So at night they dream about doing that and eventually, they'll kind of go, could this be a dream? Oh shit. I'm actually in a dream, but yeah, take some, you know, the handshake thing.

If you're only doing a couple of day, that ain't enough. You need to be in like double figures, like 10, 50 and 20 a day. This needs to be like a central preoccupation of your mind. If you want to get lucid. So it does take a lot of effort, lucid dreaming, but that's why in the Tibetan tradition it's seen as one of the higher practices, it's definitely not a beginner practice.

It's a reasonably advanced practice because the fruits that you can gain from it are incredibly powerful.

Jonathan Levi: Right. And I want to come back to that. I was so eager to figure out how we do this. I skipped over it. But what are some other dream checks or reality checks that you like to do throughout the day?

I think that's a really great, I love to give people homework that they can work on that until next week. So, you know, Hey, look at your hands 10 times a day, or, you know, spin a top 10 times a day. What are some of your other favorite reality checks?

Charlie Morley: Yeah, of course, like the inception thing, right. With a spinning top.

Here's a little spoiler alert. The spinning top isn't his totem. Just if anyone's seen that movie, you know, he clearly says you can only touch your toes and no one else can have yours. And he says that spinning top is his wife's

Jonathan Levi: Right.

Charlie Morley: So we need to re-watch inception knowing that that's not his totem.

And then the whole film takes on a slightly different meaning, especially the ending, you know, tops going for ages. You're like, what is it all a dream? Was it not? Don't look at the spinning top. Look at the. Oh, I don't want to spoil it. Look at the other thing that is good is actually his totem. Anyway.

Jonathan Levi: That's awesome.

Charlie Morley: I should be on 10% for revenue of inception. That's where I've made so many people watch it a second time. Okay. you're a great question. What other checks can we do during the day? Some people like to do it. I mean, they're all basically the same thing. It's about whenever you see something dreamlike in the day is asking yourself, could I be dreaming right now?

Now you might think like this is a one-way ticket to psychosis going around all day saying, am I dreaming? Am I dreaming Am my dreaming? Now we're open. And the well-known meditation teacher who trained me when he was asked this question, he gave a wonderful reply. He said, no, Madam madness is not asking yourself.

If you're dreaming. Madness is the fact that we are walking around like zombies, completely unaware of our surroundings. What the reality check exercise is asking you to do is to go poon the present moment. Something weird happened. I'm not going to ignore that weirdness. I'm going to enter into the weirdness and just play like a child and ask myself, wow.

Imagine if this was a dream, let me check. Four things and a thumb flip the hand four things and them. Okay. I'm not dreaming, but we keep on doing that. We keep playing and it should be playful. You know, if we can link lucid dreaming to the inner child, we have a much greater chance of doing it because we naturally lucid dream as children, not every child every night, but quite a recent Harvard study.

And that was based on an older study, found that around the age of first six, seven, eight years old children start to report spontaneous lucid dreams as part of their neurological development. So basically we've all lucidly dreamt. We just don't remember it. So we can do childlike things. If we can play with reality checks, if we can kind of dance with reality during the day, asking ourselves, wow, imagine if this was a dream now, what would I do?

How would I feel then? We're more likely to dream in that way. And if we dream with a sense of questioning reality, we're much closer to becoming lucid, but as well as the handshake, there are things like I'm pinching your nose and seeing if you can breathe. So you do that anytime you see something weird.

And then again, you'll likely do that in the dream, essentially. You know, if you spend your whole day packing boxes, what do you dream about packing boxes spend your whole day being scared of spiders? What do you dream about at night? Scary spiders. You spend your whole day being preoccupied with the question.

Is this a waking reality or is this dreaming reality? You will dream about that question. And it is that question that's vital to lucidity, not only in the dream state but from the Tibetan tradition in the waking state too because lucid dreaming the ultimate aim is lucid living. The reason we train to wake up in the dream is because it said every moment you have a lucid dream, you get an itsy bitsy taste of awakening, a full spiritual awakening.

And if you have enough of those, eventually your bucket might overflow and you'll experience full awakening in this state and full awakening, full lucidity. And this waking state would be Buddhahood. And that's what the term Buddha means. Budd means wakefulness half is like kind of male possessive. So he who has wakefulness.

So that's the aim here. You know, this is way beyond kind of building up our muscles, doing squats or training our martial arts. This is about full spiritual awakening.

Jonathan Levi: Wow.

You know, I there's so much to unpack there, but I want to come back and thank you for bringing up the psychosis thing, because you know, I've talked a lot on the show about derealization and past experiences, and it's something that I've struggled with for years now, is this feeling of being in a dream and feeling of detachment and derealization and, um, I think it's so interesting that the solution is not to feel less of that, but to dive deep into that and to become acquainted with your dreams and to be able to manipulate them, recognize them.

I mean, that's, what's going to help you feel more awake when you're awake and more in a dream when you're in a dream and separate, it sounds like separate out those two different life situations and scrutinizes and be able to. Really judge the character of your present state of


Charlie Morley: Dude, you have absolutely nailed it.

Exactly that every night when we go to sleep, our brain starts hallucinating a reality. That is so realistic. We think we're awake. Think about that when we're dreaming, we don't know we're dreaming, right? We think we're awake. It's only when we'd really wake up in the morning. We go, Oh shit, that was all a hallucination that we call a dream.

So actually dreaming itself is psychosis. So in that case, lucid dreaming is like an anti-psychotic it's about us waking up within the dream. People who are worried about lucid dreamers, losing touch with reality have actually kind of misunderstood lucid, dreaming, lucid dreaming, or to be a proficient lucid dreamer.

The entire scale is based on knowing the difference between internally generated hallucinations called dreams and waking reality. So actually lucid dreaming is training us to be more stable. And this often happens when you meet lucid dreamers. I know sometimes when people meet me, they get a bit disappointed because they expect me to be super hippy-like, Oh, wow, where's the reality where this, and I'm like, boom, I'm here, dude.

Like people were stabilized, lucid, dreaming practice. They know the difference. Between waking reality and dream reality, man, in fact, there's a brilliant guy called Maxwell Hunter. Who's got a YouTube channel called RA a rabbit, Rara rabbit who has used lucid dreaming to work with his psychosis. He's a voice hearer and he used lucid dreaming to meet his voices.

In the dream and then basically kind of embrace them, show them, love. And he had a big decrease in psychotic voices. I mean, this is insane. The stuff that kids doing, I was like, dude, if you give us another 10 years of research, it could well be that he's the outlier that first found how lucid dreaming can treat mental illness.

Who knows, who knows, but it's a possibility,

Jonathan Levi: you know, I was going to ask you on that note, that. I'm getting it now because when I talked to Stephan, he was like, you got to talk to Charlie. He's the lucid dreaming guy like that. Not in a bad way, because I've made a career out of like memory tricks, you know, but in an interesting way, I was like, that's a super interesting thing to make your career about. And you've written now four books.

Charlie Morley: Three, the third one. Yeah. Three books. One of them is a relaunch.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah, three books. So you've written three books done two online courses, done events all around the world. And I wanted to ask what the big why was because I didn't understand all the therapeutic. You know, I thought lucid dreaming was a fun thing before this conversation, a really fun way to enjoy some of life's most adventurous experiences and sleep with supermodels.

Now I'm getting, I mean, this is why you've devoted your life and your career and your entire productive time to this because it has such deep therapeutic and mindfulness benefits. Was there any moment when you realize this, where you taught someone this skill and all of a sudden the ball dropped that you're like, Holy crap, I can change people's lives with this tool?

Charlie Morley: Yeah. Yeah. There've been a couple of, I mean, first of all, I just want to acknowledge the statement you made is actually it can be used for fun and, but sleeping with supermodels and flying about and do that, you know, every now and again, have a lucid dream just for fun. It's like people who do psychedelics and only use psychedelics for a kind of deep psychological work and then sometimes they just want to have a trip for fun. It can be like that too. But yeah, I found this stuff can be. Oh, God mad at me for me. I want to share a couple of stories, but I want to share my first story, which is actually the one that really got me into lucid dreaming. You know I was 17. I had a really bad drug trip.

I had like a full-on, um, near-death experience, I had like ketamine and acid kind of overdose thing, and I had this terrible near-death experience and after that, I was having like, not really bad nightmares and panic attacks and locking myself in the, in the toilet cubicles at college cause like the world seemed too big, like, Oh man, for like, uh, for a few months.

And at that time, as I said before, I've been learning lucid, dreaming the kind of sex and skateboarding, but I read in one of the books that you could use it to cure nightmares and looking back on it, I mean, I had full post-traumatic stress nightmare because now I train people to work with post-traumatic stress. So I know that's what I had back then. And I managed to get lucid in these dreams, which was always the same thing that I was in the drugs overdose, and I was dead. I had never come out of it. It wasn't a near-death experience with a dead experience. And the first three times I got lucid but I just had the bail.

It was just too much but that fourth time I got lucid and I knew I was like, I've had enough of this. This is ruining my life. Like I'm doing my exams this year. I've got to deal with this. So I turned and faced the fear, which was always in the form of sound a bit funny, but this little dwarf, this little dwarf guy with a shaved head would appear and he was death.

That was what my grim Reaper looked like. And in the lucid dream turn and face him, I said, okay, I see it. I get it. I get it. Like as said, this is my mind. I get it. And his face changed and he went, Oh, and then he did like a magician he went ta-da! And behind him, the dream changed to a 17 year old view of paradise, which was I'm embarrassed to say a big vert skate ramp, and on the top of the skateboard ramp were girls in bikinis smoking joints. And like, that was my view of paradise. And then I woke up. I knew that I would never have those nightmares again and I didn't, that was like five months of PTSD nightmares ended after one lucid dream. And it was then that I really knew the possibility. Now, fast forward to present day, and I spent the last two years. I mean, I just got back from America, actually doing a tour, a research study on this. I spent the last two years one of the main interests I've had is working with veterans of the armed forces, made it the first retreats or taught on the first retreat for them coming up to three years ago now in Scotland.

And this is a group who over 80% were diagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder from there. Some of them from their time in the army, some of them actually not from their time before and time since the army. And we thought, you know, let's offer the lucid dream stuff. Maybe it can help with their nightmares. We had no idea. It was kind of experimental and some of them, helped. Not all of them, but some of them helped. But one guy went down from four or five nightmares a week to one nightmare a week to a year later when the Facebook picture came up, you know, they say like a year ago, this happened and it was a Facebook picture of us on the retreat.

And he re posted it and said a year later after the veterans retreat and I'm down to no nightmares every week. And I was, I just had this moment of man, this is way beyond sports training. This is way beyond just for Buddhist people who want to use it for spiritual practice. This has practical implications that can help people from the terror of post-traumatic stress disorder that they have got unwittingly from serving their country.

Whether I agree with what they were serving or not, that's not the point. The point is they're in a waking nightmare and lucid dreaming can help them with their nighttime nightmares and it's moments like that. I'm like, yes, that's why I do this, man. That's like, that's what makes it worth it.

Jonathan Levi: That is so incredible. It's so cool. So I, I have so many questions and I already have like 15 ideas I want to pitch you on, but how often do you lucid dream? Are you able to do this? Someone is trained as you every single night.

Charlie Morley: It's really interesting, no, like some nights I will literally have five lucid dreams. Every single dream period bam, bam, bam. I'm hitting it. And then some months I will have five in a month. So five in one night and five and a month because I'm not a natural lucid dreamer. And I think that's why I'm quite good at teaching it. I actually only have lucid dreams when I do the training. So if I'm like running a retreat so I do these four day intensive retreats, where during the day you learn all about lucid dreaming, but then the real kicker is that at night, you sleep in your bedroom from 10 30, till 3 30, then at 3 30, you move into the sacred sleeping area where you have a second bed set up and you come in and I'm chanting and there's all smoke and it's all kind of very set and setting. And then I guide you into the lucid dream state, and then I wake you an hour and a half later, we write down our dreams, I give you another practice, I guide you back in and we do that four times a night. When I'm running one of those retreats, because like I'm on duty and there's 50 people expecting me to get lucid then I'm going to switch it on and I'm like, boom. Okay, we're going to hit this. But then honestly the week after retreat, I'm going to be at home, I'm going to be kickboxing tradings or late at night, and I'll be having wine with my wife, I ain't doing no lucid dreaming. So yes. When I'm doing the practice.

Yeah. I can have lucid dreams when I want to, but sometimes I'm lazy and I don't and sometimes, you know, yeah. Sometimes I just don't but, um, yeah, recently I've been a pretty good for me.

Jonathan Levi: Sometimes I have memory issues when I don't use the techniques when I don't practice what I preach, you know, it's like, aren't you the memory guy?

Yeah. No, but I didn't use the thing that I that's my fault. Yeah.

Charlie Morley: Yeah. And I think this makes very good teachers though, because if we weren't, like, I often say if I was like a reincarnated Tibetan master, like the ones I follow and could just like lucid dream every night, because they've like, you know, done this practice and previous lives and all this crazy stuff.

I don't know whether I'd be as good a teacher, but because I do have droughts. Like I had depression at the beginning of the year cause my mom's dying she's really ill and I just got so depressed and I had nothing for like two months. So I went right back to having like no lucid dreams. And then I worked with a depression, I worked through it and then I had to do the techniques again and I saw the lucid dreams come back.

So I think actually not being a natural is greater Testament to the techniques we're offering people than if you were just an amazing memory person naturally. And if I was just an amazing lucid dream naturally, because it means that we can demonstrate the people. Yeah. Even after a drought, you can take a month or so off, and then you come back and you kick straight into it.

So I think for me even more inspirational, but maybe I'm just saying that because I'm embarrassed that I don't lucid dream every night.

Jonathan Levi: I feel the same way. And usually the people who are naturals, not even beyond that, they can't even, they don't understand what it's like to not be able to.

Charlie Morley: Absolutely.

Jonathan Levi: It's like Mozart or Beethoven wouldn't be able to work with someone who doesn't understand pitch or just can't wrap their head around it. All right. At this point, I want to pause and take a moment to thank our sponsor four Sigmatic. Who's making it easy for everyday people to unlock the incredible health benefits of mushrooms.

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Another thing I wanted to ask you, you know, when you're in this situation where you want all 50 people to lucid dream, I mean, I remember I bought this stuff called dream leaf, which worked for me once, but not after that. Are there any things we can do nutritionally or supplementally huperzine a stuff like that that will support or enhance lucid dreaming or is it really all about the practice?

Charlie Morley: Okay. Straight off the bat, I'd say anytime we take a pill for a spiritual practice, we're on a slippery slope. So yes, natural is always the best. However, If there are ways we can supplement us when we are on the beginning of a path to help us get better at something before we've got the stability to just do the natural way, then maybe that's worth exploring.

As far as supplements go. The one that's had a lot of press recently, they just released a new study by Stephen laBerge released a study on this. And he hasn't released studies for a few years now. It was Galantamine. Now Galantamine I know from my mom's illness actually is an anti Alzheimer's medication.

It increases blood flow to the memory centers of the brain. If you don't have Alzheimer's and you take Galantamine in the middle of the night, usually the last third, when you're about to enter into those long REM periods, then increases blood flow to the memory centers. And if the last memory you have is I want to know that I'm dreaming as I'm dreaming, you know, to get lucid. Then this is been shown to have pretty good results for people getting lucid in laboratory conditions versus placebo trials controlled trials. So, yeah, Galantamine works. However, glands mean you do get a bit of a hangover the next day.

Some people find, as some people find that increase their doses because they get a little bit of an immunity to it. And to be honest, I found that the quality of lucidity. When using Galantamine is it feels like you're a bit drunk in there. I only had 10 lucid dreams and then you take land to me, you'll be like, Oh my God.

Gland is amazing because it gives me lucid dreams all the time. But if you've had like over 500 lucid dreams, by the time I first hit Glanzman a few years back. And then you take it. You can really tell the difference in quality. So I found it. You could tell it wasn't naturally induced. It did have a kind of a thing to it, but anyway, you know, maybe some people that's their vibe, then they can try that.

I personally wouldn't recommend it. What I would recommend though, are food stuffs or supplements. If you can't get it naturally from food that are very high in B vitamins. Specifically B vitamin six, but a good B vitamin complex would work pretty well. So if you were to wake up in the middle of the night and then, you know, Bosch a couple of like high dose B vitamins, six tablets, or a B vitamins complex like that, you can dissolve in a drink.

I dunno, in the UK, we have this thing called Baraka, which is like good for hangovers of lots of B vitamins. You have a shot of that 4 30 in the morning or something. That's going to have a effect. They've shown that B6 especially increases blood flow to the parts of the brain that increased vivid dreaming.

So you're going to have more vivid dreams, not necessarily lucid dreams, but the more vivid they are, the more likely you are to kind of recognize their dream. And of course, if you could get those B vits naturally all the better, you know, you have like half a pint of kale juice or something like that, green leafy vegetables, loaded broccoli, that kind of stuff before bed, you're going to probably get the B vits you need, but you know, maybe you want to take a supplement.

Jonathan Levi: I love it. I love the approach as well of like, you know, you really need to learn the skills. I I'm a firm believer, you know, medication allows you kind of hold your hand during the process, also something like a depression, right? Like you're going to need to go and you're going to need to see the psychologist, the medication is to make it easier for you to strike up the courage, you know, to wake up in the morning and go see the psychologist. So I really appreciate that approach for sure.

Charlie Morley: Absolutely.

Jonathan Levi: Now, any tips for cool things to try let's say people implement all this stuff and this week they are able to have their first ever lucid dream from the expert. What are some things that we should try besides supermodels and halfpipes.

Charlie Morley: Okay So you could try asking big questions. Yeah you know, maybe for your Viber podcast listeners, I think they might dig this.

In the lucid dream once you're lucid, you could call out to the sky, not to the people because the people will represent tiny aspects of your sub personalities, you know, everything, the dream is you, of course, you know, what else would it be? Or at least 99% of it as you it's your own psychology. So if you ask the dream characters questions, they will often give you kind of gobbled replies or very kind of uh half-baked replies, almost like they're kind of extras on a film set on a movie set, you know, there are the actors, you don't have any lines, so they like don't expect the speak.

So when I tell people to do this, Sometimes they'll email and say, Oh, they just gave me this crazy reply. I say, who did you ask? And they say, I'll ask the dream character. So don't ask a dream character to get lucid and call out to the sky. Something like, show me what I need to see or something like, how can I be of most benefit or something like as my friend did, she called out, show me what I should do career-wise and she caught this amazing response that she should be a nursery teacher. She wasn't at this time, she was a break dance teacher, but within a few months, a string of amazing synchronicities and another couple of lucid dreams, and she ended up getting a job as a nursery school teacher and she's still there now. I mean, it's insane what you can do as far as a recent one that I haven't written about or blogged about so this'll be a new one just a couple of months ago, I got lucid and I called out and the lucid dream, show me what I need to see. And at that point, this huge, like Navy battleship came into the dream and like a port and it came in with fanfare like the dream was going to and the ship came in and I instantly start interpreting the dream within the lucid dream cause of course that's what you can do. If you want to dream interpretation oh my God, you can do it inside your dream. So I'm getting lucid thinking, Oh, this is based on my work with veterans. It must be look the army ship, the Navy ship. And then I see on the top of the ship, it says HMS Charles Shore. And I instantly think, Oh, that must be me because when I got married, I changed my name to shore. I took my wife's name just because I think it's ridiculous we've been forcing women to take our name. It's about land and power and that's bullshit and I refused to play that part. So I took my wife's name right? So legally I'm not Charles shore now. So I assume it's me. So as Charles Shaw and then some other stuff happens and I wake up. And I'm telling people at the retreat about this, I'm doing a retreat in Venice at the moment when that occurred.

And I said, Oh yeah. So I had this lucid dream last night and I think it was a dream telling me that I need to use the name Charles Shaw when I work with veterans to make a difference between my lucid dreaming work and I think it was a good dream. Anyway, a few days after the retreat, I get an email from this Italian guy who's on the retreat saying, Charlie, have you Googled Charles Shaw?

And I was like, no, man. I mean, that's, you know, I don't have a website set up yet and he went just Google, Charles Shaw plus veterans now I Google it. It turns out Charles Shaw is a documentary filmmaker who specializes in working with veterans. I was like, this is insane. We have listened to this. I finally see it on Facebook.

And now he doesn't know this. I haven't told him the teams or this will be a surprise him. I just said like, Oh, Hey man, um, funny coincidence, we have a similar name, blah, blah, blah. And I hear you're working with veterans. I'm working with veterans too blah, blah, blah. This guy hooks me up. He sends me loads of contacts, people to meet up with when I do the research thing in America, you know, stuff that was just amazing. And I realized when I asked the dream, show me what I need to see something on my unconscious mind had tapped into god. I don't know, man. I mean, we're in Harry Potter land. I have no scientific explanation for this, but maybe it tapped into something in the collective unconscious to put me in contact with this guy who would help me benefit veterans.

Jonathan Levi: Holy crap.

Charlie Morley: I don't know, man. You know, that dream was recent. I haven't quite got my head around it. Maybe I'll regret saying that it was so magical later, but it feels magical now. And I met up with this dude. Well, we didn't meet up, but we spoke online and stuff and um, It was very beneficial. So you can ask me questions and you can get these crazy answers.

Jonathan Levi: That's really good. I would have never thought of that, you know, I would've thought of, Hey, fly around or try cutting off your arm and see what that feels like, stuff like that. Cause I've done some stuff, you know, I I had one where I went around asking would I know, like if I hadn't already figured it out, would I know?

So I went and I touched the door handle. Yeah. It was interesting. Like just trying to test out if I had not done the hand thing, you know, and so I went and I touched the door handle and the door handle was appropriately cold considering that the air conditioner was running, you know, it wasn't a warmer and I was like, it's really incredible.

The reality that your brain, I started cutting tomatoes and they had the proper amount of resistance, basically broccoli, how sharp the knife was. It was super fascinating. What I did find was I went flying around Los Angeles and everything started to repeat because I didn't have aerial footage in my memory of Los Angeles.

So what are some limitations that you found of lucid dreams?

Charlie Morley: Interesting. I mean, sometimes we do find the edge of the lucid dream, but I think often the edge of the lucid dream is based on our preconception of how big we think the lucid dream is. How, because the training I received in the Buddhist tradition is telling you that the lucid dream is limitless.

I am less likely to encounter those limits. And now I've told you that, that the lucid dream is actually totally limitless, you will probably do that because maybe you had a maybe as part of your trust, what I'm saying or whatever, but I hope that I'm reprogramming you to know that there are no limits to this stuff.

I mean, there's my thing with Charles shore show is where, you know, the lucid dream can actually bring us into the trans personal, where we move way beyond scientific validation and we're into something magical. Who knows just because I think I gave a really long answer then and I wasn't given a couple more things in case we missed that question other cool things you can do in lucid dream, healing. So psychological trauma. So anyone with nightmares or PTSD, there is the ability to heal psychological trauma through the lucid dream. Let's say some stuff happened to you as a child or, um, you know, there's heartbreak issues and stuff like that, there's the ability to go into the lucid dream and heal aspects of yourself.

I mean, when we're hurting, when we're depressed, when we've been heartbroken, what is it that is hurt? It's our psychology. More than our body right? And we are in our psychology in a lucid dream. So the ability to heal our psychology through the lucid dream would seen the prime place to do it. So there's the ability to kind of heal past trauma, to work with phobias. For example, if you're scared of spiders, Then you can go into the lucid dream and you can interact with spiders knowing that your body's asleep in bed, you're totally safe, this is just a virtual reality simulation. So you can start to fearlessly interact with spiders. However, here's the kicker. And this is the same thing that applies to the PTSD treatment and to the sports training studies.

Once you become lucid in your dream, neuro-plasticity becomes engaged. What does this mean in a non lucid dream the prefrontal cortex is almost entirely deactivated. This is why your sense of self is so dull within a normal lucid dream, which is why you can dream your other people. You're in other places because your prefrontal cortex and the sense of self that seems to reside in that area of neurology is switched off.

However, once you become lucid, the part of the brain that reactivates is the prefrontal cortex, especially the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. Now once that prefrontal cortex lights up a side effect of its activation, is that whatever you do in the lucid dream, isn't just like, you're imagining it, it's like you're doing it. We can see neural pathways being laid down, strengthened within a lucid dream that you do not get the strengthening from in a non lucid dream. So back to the spider example, if you're in a lucid dream and you're fearlessly interacting with a spider, you're not only healing your psychological aversion to spiders, by interacting with them, you're actually reprogramming your brain to be less scared of spiders in the waking state.

Now that is huge. That means that we can actually directly start changing our own neurology while we sleep. And that means we can work with phobias, that means we can work with trauma, That means we can work with confidence issues. It also means we have a very heightened possibility of the placebo effect.

Now this is where it gets weird. There are anecdotal reports to many of them for it not to have some truth and I'm one of them actually, that there is the possibility to heal the physical body or at least optimize immune response through lucid dreaming. How does it work? I think it's probably the placebo effect, I can't find any other science that would explain it. However, the placebo effect is incredibly powerful. And if the placebo effect is the mind effecting the body, then imagine what happens if we engage the placebo effect from within the mind, it's like placebo max. So, I mean, I used to wear glasses. I went into the lucid dream and spent three lucid dreams doing hands-on healing on my eyes, in the lucid dream, calling out things like my eyes are free of conflict. My eyes are free of conflict. My immune system is boosted my eyes see clearly all these affirmations, all these suggestions. And all I can say is I don't wear my glasses anymore. I mean, I don't have perfect, perfect vision, but I have vision that means I don't need to wear my glasses anymore. And all I did was those three or four lucid dreams and skeptics have said to me, Oh, that's just because you believe in lucid dreaming so much that's just the placebo effect.

And I'm like, yeah, I've never said it's anything but that belief and the power of the placebo are maximized within the lucid dream. So, yeah. I don't know how it works, but it works.

Jonathan Levi: Totally. It's funny you say that I'm going to go get laser surgery tomorrow. Maybe I need to cancel it. I don't lucid dream consistently

Charlie Morley: If you get lucid tonight though, which you might based on this podcast, dude.

Imagine you get lucid tonight and you do it. Yeah. Hands-on healing call out statements of intent really believe in the power of the mind, the maximization of the placebo effect. That'd be so cool man.

Jonathan Levi: Yeah. And it would save me like a couple thousand dollars.

So Charlie, I want to really quickly, I know this isn't like a, on the way question, but you also do work in embracing the shadow. Is that what we've been talking about with PTSD and psychological trauma? I just wanted to make sure we touch on all of your work before I let you go.

Charlie Morley: Yeah. So my latest book, which came out about a year ago now is called dreaming through darkness.

And it's all about embracing the shadow, shadow, being anything within ourselves that we have rejected, denied, or disowned. So it's made of our shame, it's made of our fear, it's made of our trauma, but it's also made of our hidden talents. It's made of our beauty, it's made of our spiritual side that we hide from others.

You know, it's not just the kind of uh, seemingly harmful things we hide from others, it's also our blinding light that's just too big to share, or we feel that it might be too big to share. So yeah, shadow work is based on that. And I spent like 10 years teaching people how to do that and their lucid dreams, how to move towards the nightmare.

You know, my Ted talk is all about that low lucidly, embracing your nightmares, working with PTSD, working with fear and phobias, and it was working for a lot of people, but what I realized was not everyone who would come to the workshops would actually go through the rigmarole of learning to lucid dream.

Like maybe only a third of people in the workshops would actually put in the kind of time required to gain a stabilize lucid dreaming practice. So I wanted to see if I could develop a set of practices, which had exactly the same attitude towards our fears, towards our shame, towards our traumas, but that could be done in the waking state.

So the book has over 30 exercises, about 10 of those are lucid dreaming exercises, but 20 of them are not, they are daytime exercise. Daytime meditations, contemplations, mask work, eye gazing, Buddhist meditation. Uh, mirror work, you know, doing stuff where you talk to the mirror and stuff, which can be done by non lucid dreamers, but yeah have exactly the same effect of integrating fear, maximizing potential, working with trauma. \

Jonathan Levi: Incredible. Charlie, I have a hundred different ways that I want to continue our conversations and meet up and hang out, but yeah, we are up on time so I want to give you an opportunity to let people know where they can reach out and learn more about you, get in touch, read your books, take your courses.

Charlie Morley: Sure thing. Thanks dude. So my website,, if you forget my last name and someone recently said, if you just type into Google Charlie lucid, then all my stuff comes up. So you can remember that I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter, I've got online courses and books, a lot of free stuff I offer as well as the paid courses to check out my stuff and keep in touch. Uh, you know, I don't have an assistant, I don't have anyone answering my emails, everything myself, I liked to have, you know, direct communication with people. And I really think this stuff can help change people's lives so if you think it could change yours, then yeah learn to lucid dream. Doesn't have to be through my books you learn it, but just teach yourself how to do it because this stuff is really well, like, you know, can make you superhuman.

Jonathan Levi: Awesome. And like I said, I already got a crazy idea as to how we can get this in the hands, of even more people that I want to tell you about after we hit the button off.

But I want to ask you before we let you go, and before I thank you for your generosity of time and spirit if people remember one big, big takeaway from this episode and carry it with them for the rest of their lives, what do you hope for that to be?

Charlie Morley: I think it would be that, what if we could be fully lucid in this life? Because we're asleep for a third of our lives. So I'm like, Oh, we're asleep a third of our lives let's all learn lucid dreaming, but we're awake for two-thirds of our life. So imagine if we could engage the waking state with the same level of lucidity that we try to engage at nighttime. You know, sometimes when I get lucid in my dreams, the first thing I do is I just run around and hug everyone because I realized, wow, everything's me.

This is all my mind. So why would I ever be violent to anything? Even when I meet scary things in my lucid dream, I show them love because I know it's me. And then I often think, imagine if we could have that level of awareness in this state, if, when someone's pissing us off, when someone's giving us a, an opinion that we don't agree with, rather than reacting, we could just step back and go if this was a lucid dream, what would I do? How would I respond? And very often the answer is I'd respond with a little bit more love, or at least curiosity. Because fear and curiosity can not exist in the human mind at the same time. So every time we feel the fear that makes us angry, the fear that makes us prejudice, the fear that makes us judge people.

If we can step back into curiosity and just ask ourselves if I was in a dream right now, how would I respond? I really think the world could be a happier place.

Jonathan Levi: I love it. Charlie, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. I've really, really enjoyed this. And I really hope we keep in touch. Thank you.

Charlie Morley: Thanks so much, man. It's been a pleasure.

Jonathan Levi: All right. Superfriends. That is all we have for you today, but I hope you guys really enjoyed the show and I hope you learned a ton of actionable information tips, advice that will help you go out there and overcome the impossible. If you've enjoyed the show, please take a moment to leave us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, or drop us a quick little note on the Twitter machine @gosuperhuman.

Also, if you have any ideas. For anyone out there who you would love to see on the show, we always love to hear your recommendations. You can submit on our website, or you can just drop us an email and let us know that's all for today, guys. Thanks for tuning in.

Closing: Thanks for tuning in to the Becoming Superhuman Podcast. For more great skills and strategies, or for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode, visit

We'll see you next time.




  1. Luiz
    at — Reply

    Thanks, I learned a lot of interesting things in past episodes.

  2. Shivaditya Purohit
    at — Reply

    loved th heart and the depth of the conversation. The way that Dr. Metivier shared from his enormous experience and insights was just amazing. Thank you Jonathan for doing this podcast!! 🙂

  3. Rob
    at — Reply

    Great interview with Dr. Greg Wells! He mentioned a doctor from Colorado around the 42:30 point of the podcast, discussing turmeric and black pepper. I couldn’t make out the doctor’s name. Can you provide me with his full name and maybe his website or contact info. Interested in his products.



  4. Muhammed Sani Ibrahim
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    I am new here, and learning really fast.
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  5. Leonia
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The Basics of Total Personal Transformation W/ Stephan Spencer